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Hive Fleet Dagon v4.71 and original F-ERC lists

 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.7 and original F-ERC lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:08 am 
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Those are some pretty significant changes. Hoping to hear more about your games that spured these decisions. Biovores have armour 6+, I cant imagine they pose that difficult an obsticle to defeat when trying to snipe the synapse creatures. I just worry that with the carnifex increase and the biovores changing to inf, the raveners changing to inf,etc... that it will be either really hard or expensive to attempt to shield your synapse and consequently affect you activation counts. Especially the vulnerable minor swarms. Yeah you could go full zoanthroaps for the 4+ and inv save but then you also are very slow. Don't get me wrong its all very fluffy. Its just that there is a massive drawback to losing your synapse that you may want to tone down as a consequence. This is this only list that has such a harsh drawback (even among tyranids):

"A Synapse Swarm with no remaining Synapse creatures has an initiative of 3+ and may neither capture nor contest including They Shall Not Pass."

This essentially makes the formation garbage. Especially since the expendible rule only applies when not all units in the formation are expendible.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.71 and original F-ERC lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:22 am 
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Maybe also consider changing the hive mind locus to be more universal to synapse formation containing synapse but also toned down a bit. Its a very extensive rule to only affect one unit. Tone down the draw back from losing the synapse to the formation doesnt just fall apart and apply the hivemind to more stuff then there will still be a big drawback to losing synapse but it won't turn your formations to chittering idiots.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.7 and original F-ERC lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:09 am 
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atension wrote:
Those are some pretty significant changes. Hoping to hear more about your games that spured these decisions.


Basically Argol figured out a really nasty build based on spamming flying Major Swarms that only took Haruspexes. As his opponent, my first reaction was "that's a lot of really fast 4++ that'll hit really hard in CC" and that's just what they ended up doing. That build is still doable, but limiting the armour, limiting the CC values and making the Major Swarm a bit pricier will really help I think.

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Biovores have armour 6+, I cant imagine they pose that difficult an obsticle to defeat when trying to snipe the synapse creatures.


On first glance you're right, but remember that Dagon Tyranid Light Vehicles get cover saves... Those Biovores get 4+ save when in ruins, 5+ save when the formation is on Overwatch, and get to claim cover for being next to WE and AV.

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I just worry that with the carnifex increase and the biovores changing to inf, the raveners changing to inf,etc... that it will be either really hard or expensive to attempt to shield your synapse and consequently affect you activation counts.


It's a concern for sure, and it most definitely will affect activation counts. But there's also ways of dealing with it by using mixed swarms, or just accepting that sometimes your synapse creatures will get shot at. There's always the option of using cover, or making use of WE that blocks LoS. The goal with this list has always been to get away from the fairly 1-dimensional strategies you can find yourself using when playing E-UK or Onachus Tyranids.

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Yeah you could go full zoanthroaps for the 4+ and inv save but then you also are very slow.

You're not slow if you drop them from a spaceship, or make use of Malefactors. Zoanthropes are also great for capturing rear objectives.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong its all very fluffy. Its just that there is a massive drawback to losing your synapse that you may want to tone down as a consequence. This is this only list that has such a harsh drawback (even among tyranids):

"A Synapse Swarm with no remaining Synapse creatures has an initiative of 3+ and may neither capture nor contest including They Shall Not Pass."


It is really harsh, I agree. But it also makes it attractive to take Independent Swarms. Again, the idea is to encourage lists where you want to take a little bit of everything. Genestealers are really good at claiming and contesting objectives for example.

Quote:
This essentially makes the formation garbage. Especially since the expendible rule only applies when not all units in the formation are expendible.
Remember that you can absorb swarms that's lost their synapse creatures, and that they can still block movement.

Overall, as someone who's had a few games with this list I think you're overreacting a bit. Yeah, you're going to have to be careful with how you construct your swarms and how you position yourself. But on the bright side the army is swimming in MW and TK attacks and has some really powerful special rules. I encourage you to have a go with it, in my experience the synapse creatures aren't as easy to kill off if you're just a bit careful.

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Last edited by Mrdiealot on Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.71 and original F-ERC lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:23 am 
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atension wrote:
Maybe also consider changing the hive mind locus to be more universal to synapse formation containing synapse but also toned down a bit. Its a very extensive rule to only affect one unit.


It actually can affect 2 formations since it's possible to have both the Dagon Overlord and a Dominatrix in the army. And I thought that it would be appropriate to have the same mechanics as the Onachus list at least somewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.71 and original F-ERC lists
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:15 am 
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Let me preface this by saying I think you are doing a great job and I really like the ideas behind the list and how fluffy it is.

I'm curious about your thoughts on relative power between this list current state and E-UK or Onachus Tyranids. In looking at relative strengths both the UK and Onachus seem to come out a little on top of this list. Onachus has cheaper formations, auto rally, dont have to worry nearly as mush about losing synapse, better Dominatrix, more diverse independant swarms, respawning gaunts and tougher wurm tanks, . EUK has universal grot-gaunts. I've played the Onachus a bunch and the UK a few. Those lists dont the same horde feel with larger swarms or have a drop component which is what really drew me to this one. It just seems like the drop aspect has become prohibitively expensive and/or much too risky with how detrimental losing synapse is now that its much harder to sheild your synapse. I was hoping the drop aspect would be more central or viable. Just consider the cost of adding the spaceship, AV shield and drop pod to the 2 formations. One of them will end up being your BTS (unless you have very low activation count). The cost of doing it will be close to 40% of your list at 3k in just two formations and your spaceship. The space ship will get pushed out of first turn drop by nearly every other race using one also this makes it less likely your deathwind/bombard attacks hits anything and you deployed formations have a higher chance of not being in assault range. All these factors make list with drop troops a very risky strategy. Which is a good part of what sets this list apart from the others strategy wise.

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Last edited by atension on Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.71 and original F-ERC lists
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:07 am 
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Curious on your thoughs on how this list can stand up to eldar and necrons.

Eldar are a fairly common sight in most groups, necrons not so much. I know playing the other tyranid lists in the past against them have been any extremely tough fight. With the heavier synapse and shoot the big ones draw back in this list Eldar will 9/10 walk all over you. They have faster assault formations, lots of cheap AT fire. Very good spaceships with high strategy rating, cheap barrage, and high activation counts. They will dictate the assaults so the tyranid player wont get the grot rule and the eldar set up supporting fire with higher activation counts, they will snipe off the synapse with ease with the fast falcons and lance prism shots. The space ship pinpoint atracks will rip apart the very expensive dominatrix. Saim-Han especially will be almost not worth playing against because on top of everything else they are all skimmers.

Necrons will dictate all the assaults, they wont beable to snipe the synapse as well but have far superior FF, armour and skimmer tanks. This list wont be able to counter the necrons with overwatch either since its shooting is not its strong suit. The abattoir will walk through nids (metalic glee sounds). Also drop lists are almost pointless against Necrons.

Also of note; Tau guided missiles, GG synapse.

I am really hoping you can come up with a solution to get asay from the rock paper scissors effect the previous nids list have when facing certain factions. This list currently looks to have an even heavier Rock paper scissors. The the auto rally really helps the Onachus list against the necrons and the UK universal grots helps immensly against the eldar and necrons.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.71 and original F-ERC lists
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:02 pm 
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atension wrote:
Let me preface this by saying I thing you are doing a great job and I really like the ideas behind the list and how fluffy it is.


Thanks! Tho I should say that it's the French that's done the heavy lifting of coming up with the basic design. I (along with everyone helping me playtest and giving feedback on this) am just trying to improve on it.

Quote:
I'm curious about your thoughts on relative power between this list current state and E-UK or Onachus Tyranids.


Right now I actually think it is stronger than Onachus, but perhaps not as strong as the strongest E-UK small-swarm-spam build which can be devastating to meet. The experience of playing against that one really made me consider the danger of Tyranids ending up spamming a single swarm over and over again (apparently there's also a Hive Nest build that can be pretty strong).

Onachus can't really do much useful with their inf since they're not that good at winning engages, and their AV are really slow and quite expensive. There's also much better AA in Dagon than in Onachus (you can pretty much build a list where every single unit has AA!), the Lictors can actually kill stuff, there's the drop pod capability (which I actually think is fairly cheap). The way Onachus wins is by attrition, which is fluffy in it's own way but hard to vary. The Onachus Dominatrix shoots harder than the Dagon one, but the difference between 6 and 4 DC is pretty significant too.

Then there are the speed and threat range of Dagon's flying swarms (that the other's dont really have), that AV are fairly cheap, fast and hit pretty hard, and the variety of tunnelers it has.

The main drawback the list has is the Synapse being vulnerable, and losing synapse fairly devastating. But it's not as easy as it may seem to actually kill the synapse creatures.

Quote:
Curious on your thoughs on how this list can stand up to eldar and necrons.


Don't know since I haven't tested them yet, but I'm definitely not as pessimistic as you seem to be. The Dagon list is extremely flexible in how you construct it, and I think there's definitely builds that can stand up against both those lists. You can get quite a lot of FF in the list, there's a decent amount of hard-hitting shooting, the Bio-vores are excellent against Falcons behind buildings (and now they're not LV anymore, making them a lot harder to kill).

In fact, I think we need to test a Biovore spam build next time since it's possible to take extreme amounts of them, making them Inf also makes them harder to kill and they make it easier to protect the Synapse Creatures (the swarm can stay out of LOS and still shoot).

Skimming War Engines are nasty for sure, since they can't be hit in CC, but it can be broken when engaged by formations with lots of "Gaunts" that don't count for combat resolution.

In conclusion I think you need to re-evaluate how you build your swarms to really be effective with the Dagon list, and how to best take advantage of the special rules it has (particularly the "Gaunts" rule).

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.71 and original F-ERC lists
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:15 pm 
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This list might not be the best example, but what it does have is 44 biovores, 20 of which starts in garrison, and quite a lot of AA. I can't imagine that Eldar would find it particularly pleasant to meet, and getting rid of all those Hive Nests will take some time.

Biovore-Spam, 3000 POINTS
Hive Fleet Dagon (4.71 TCMD forum)
==================================================

NEXUS SWARM (2-4 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [575]
Dagon Dominatrix, Burrower (2 Trygons), Bio-Attack (2 Dagon Haruspex)

MAJOR SWARM (2-4 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [325]
2 Bio-Attack (2 Dagon Malefactors), 4 Zoanthrope, Hive Tyrant Shrike (Wings)

MINOR SWARM (2-4 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [250]
Biovores (4 Biovores), Biovores (4 Biovores), 3 Zoanthrope

MINOR SWARM (2-4 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [250]
Biovores (4 Biovores), Biovores (4 Biovores), 3 Zoanthrope

MINOR SWARM (2-4 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [250]
Biovores (4 Biovores), Biovores (4 Biovores), 3 Zoanthrope

HIVE SWARM (1-2 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [200]
Hive Nest, Biovores (4 Biovores)

HIVE SWARM (1-2 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [200]
Hive Nest, Biovores (4 Biovores)

HIVE SWARM (1-2 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [200]
Hive Nest, Biovores (4 Biovores)

HIVE SWARM (1-2 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [200]
Hive Nest, Biovores (4 Biovores)

HIVE SWARM (1-2 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [200]
Hive Nest, Biovores (4 Biovores)

GENESTEALER SWARM [175]
6 Genestealers, Broodlord

GENESTEALER SWARM [175]
6 Genestealers, Broodlord

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.71 and original F-ERC lists
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:37 pm 
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Really looking forward to getting some Battle reports in for you. I really appreciate your quick replies and constructive approach.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.71 and original F-ERC lists
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:23 pm 
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Happy to hear that! Hopefully we've got something that's worth pushing for now.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.71 and original F-ERC lists
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:01 pm 
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Two playtest sessions lined up this week. Looking to play something like this tonight:


Incompertus, 3000 POINTS
Hive Fleet Dagon (4.71 TCMD forum)
==================================================

MAJOR SWARM (2-4 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [525]
4 Tyranid Warriors, Dagon Overlord, 2 Carnifex (3 Carnifex)

MAJOR SWARM (2-4 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [325]
Hive Tyrant Shrike (Wings), 4 Zoanthrope, 2 Bio-Attack (2 Dagon Malefactors)

MAJOR SWARM (2-4 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [325]
Hive Tyrant Shrike (Wings), 4 Zoanthrope, 2 Bio-Attack (2 Dagon Malefactors)

MINOR SWARM (2-4 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [200]
Gaunts (5 Termagaunts), 3 Zoanthrope, Mycetic Spore // May transport Termagaunts, Hormagaunts, Biovores, Carnifex, Raveners, Hive Tyrants, Dagon Overlord, Tyranid Warriors, Zoanthropes // Transported units may not have Wings

MINOR SWARM (2-4 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [200]
Gaunts (5 Termagaunts), 3 Zoanthrope, Mycetic Spore // May transport Termagaunts, Hormagaunts, Biovores, Carnifex, Raveners, Hive Tyrants, Dagon Overlord, Tyranid Warriors, Zoanthropes // Transported units may not have Wings

HIVE SWARM (1-2 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [275]
Hive Nest, 2 Biovores (4 Biovores)

HIVE SWARM (1-2 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [275]
Hive Nest, 2 Biovores (4 Biovores)

HIVE SWARM (1-2 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [275]
Hive Nest, 2 Biovores (4 Biovores)

HIVE SWARM (1-2 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [275]
Hive Nest, 2 Biovores (4 Biovores)

BIO-VESSEL [150]
Razorfiend (May carry 2 Mycetic Spores including cargo)

GENESTEALER SWARM [175]
6 Genestealers, Broodlord

The list might not look like much until you realize that's 32 Bivores in garrison. The idea with the Zoanthrope drops is to hopefully get them as far ahead as possible in the first turn in order to disrupt the enemy army with Barrage, blast markers, engages and fearless Zoanthropes. The Biovores and the Hive nests clog up the main field and fire into the enemy deployment while the rest of the army moves up. Might replace some Biovores with Gargoyles to get more AA, but this seems more extreme.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.71 and original F-ERC lists
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:13 pm 
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Another version. Less extreme biovore-spam, but might actually be better.

Incompertus, 3000 POINTS
Hive Fleet Dagon (4.71 TCMD forum)
==================================================

MAJOR SWARM (2-4 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [525]
4 Tyranid Warriors, Dagon Overlord, 2 Carnifex (3 Carnifex)

MAJOR SWARM (2-4 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [300]
2 Zoanthrope, Bio-Attack (2 Dagon Malefactors), Hive Tyrant, 2 Tyranid Warriors, Gaunts (2 Termagaunts, 3 Hormagaunts)

MAJOR SWARM (2-4 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [300]
2 Zoanthrope, Bio-Attack (2 Dagon Malefactors), Hive Tyrant, 2 Tyranid Warriors, Gaunts (2 Termagaunts, 3 Hormagaunts)

MINOR SWARM (2-4 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [200]
3 Zoanthrope, Mycetic Spore, Gaunts (3 Termagaunts, 2 Hormagaunt)

MINOR SWARM (2-4 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [200]
3 Zoanthrope, Mycetic Spore, Gaunts (3 Termagaunts, 2 Hormagaunt)

HIVE SWARM (1-2 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [250]
Hive Nest, Biovores (4 Biovores), Gargoyles (4 Dagon Gargoyles)

HIVE SWARM (1-2 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [250]
Hive Nest, Biovores (4 Biovores), Gargoyles (4 Dagon Gargoyles)

HIVE SWARM (1-2 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [325]
Hive Nest, Biovores (4 Biovores), Bio-Support (3 Dagon Dactylis)

HIVE SWARM (1-2 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [325]
Hive Nest, Biovores (4 Biovores), Bio-Support (3 Dagon Dactylis)

GENESTEALER SWARM [175]
6 Genestealers, Broodlord

BIO-VESSEL [150]
Razorfiend (May carry 2 Mycetic Spores including cargo)

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