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Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Proposals

 Post subject: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Proposals
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:27 pm 
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The Tyranid list saw a small update. As always, the latest version is up here:

http://www.tp.net-armageddon.org/army-l ... ranid.html
http://www.tp.net-armageddon.org/pdfs/netea-tyranid.pdf

The changes are documented here: viewtopic.php?p=582353#p582353




For those interested in 'nid development and posting battle reports, here's what I'm purposing for this year:

  • Remove Brood Lord's Rending Claws and take it down to +25 points (from +50)
  • Allow Bio-Titans to be armed with any two weapons (Bile Launcher, Bio-Cannon, Cluster Spines, Pyro Acid Spray, Razorclaw). Max of 1 each though, except for Razorclaws.
  • Give Gargoyles IC in FF.
  • Remove this sentence from Swarming:
    Quote:
    A formation may only return units to play if it started the game with that type of unit. For example, if a formation began the game with only Termagants then it could only return Termagants via swarming.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Propos
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:26 pm 
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Hi! played a tournament using my nids yesterday. It was 4000 pts so I could take a quite a few formations.

I wanted to give some feedback since I see one problem with the list. It's with how the brood creatures behave. From a fluff point it seems like one should just throw them right into the frayin epic assaults. But in gaming terms I find that you don't want to. The hormagaunts are mostly a liability and also the termagaunts but to a somewhat lesser degree in assaults. That's because they die in drows due to not having any save. This gives the opponent a lot of kills in the resolution phase. I find that an unupgraded swarm/only gaunts has very little use for this reason and have a rather hard time winning assaults.

I tend to only be successful with swarms with bigger creatures with good saves that can soak up hits. And even in these formations I often find that I hold my hormagaunts back in assaults as to not give away easy kills.
That an upgraded formation is better then one without, is of course totally ok and as it should be, but I still find it to be a shame that gaunt heavy swarms work so poorly and that I can't do what the background suggests.

Epic-uk has solved this with giving brood creatures the grot rule. That seems like a too strong rule though, if combined with swarming at least.

I would like to suggest a kind of middleground for testing. My idea is that we should let a formation ignore one killed brood creature for each remaining point of synapse in the assault resolution phase.

Secondly please change zoanthrope movement to 20cm. It's not like they add a super good AA attack anyway. The lesser movement is just annoying and unnecessarily complicates things. I don't think it would break the list but just make it simpler and more enjoyable.


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Propos
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:04 pm 
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Quote:
Epic-uk has solved this with giving brood creatures the grot rule. That seems like a too strong rule though, if combined with swarming at least.

I would like to suggest a kind of middleground for testing. My idea is that we should let a formation ignore one killed brood creature for each remaining point of synapse in the assault resolution phase.


I have been looking at the French version of the Tyranids, and they've got some very interesting ideas on this topic. In their list, Termagaunts, Hormagaunts and Gargoyles function like normal units (giving blast markers etc) but do not count for combat resolution *if the Tyranid player initiated the assault*. Also, their Synapse rule allows for the removal of an additional blast marker.

Another nice rule is that they give the Tyranid player the option of moving twice when making a hold (but may not support engagements that turn). Played a game against Borka a week ago, and this second rule would really have helped him from being stuck in his deployment the first turn. Fits very well thematically with Tyranids being this horde that surges forward no matter what.

Other things that list has that I like is:

-Tyranid Warriors are light vehicles for targeting purposes (very thematic). Also, light vehicles can be transported, but counts double.
-Hive Tyrants and Tyranid Warriors can be given jump pack (for an armour penalty) Again very thematic, and makes Gargoyle swarms a lot more interesting.

The French army lists are found on this site: http://f-erc-codex-epic-armageddon.e-monsite.com/

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Propos
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:41 pm 
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Is the French list available in English anywhere?


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Propos
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:12 pm 
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NoisyAssassin wrote:
Is the French list available in English anywhere?


I've done a partial, unofficial translation of them. The semi-expendable rule described above is not in these documents (should be part of the special rules but is instead on the unit description part that I haven't translated), Works as described in my previous post.


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Propos
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:49 am 
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Sweet!


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Propos
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:16 pm 
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Unupgraded swarms are going to have a tough time with assaults, yes. They're intended to be upgraded for on of the reasons you brought up: to put hits on the bigger stuff and get some saves.

I haven't run into wanting to hold Hormagaunts back from CC. If anything, I want the extra hit potential. I put the AV bugs up front, then Termagants, Warriors and Hormagaunts in most of my swarms. By the time turn 2 comes around I can usually manage the AVs in CC along with the Hormagaunts with their 40cm move.

The EA list had a "1/2 gaunts rule" at one point. It was the grot rule but only half of the brrod creatured killed counted for assault resolution. It was not well received by any of my opponents. Often times I wouldn't bother prepping or supporting (sometimes both) an assault when I knew I could count on little to no "kills" on the bugs in resolution. Your suggestion is a lot more elegant and less powerful, definitely try it out. I'm not sure it would get much support in my group, but if more people are interested I'm sure I can get someone to playtest.

On Zoanthropes, they'd be a no-brainer even more so if they moved 20cm. 25 points for AA cover that keeps pace with you? Yes please. The 15cm move is fluffy and at least makes you stop and think before you get one. I will say that getting them in FF hasn't been too difficult here. I start them up front on turn 1, and after a double and an engage move they can be at the halfway line and firefighting 15cm beyond that.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Propos
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:41 pm 
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Dave wrote:
Unupgraded swarms are going to have a tough time with assaults, yes. They're intended to be upgraded for on of the reasons you brought up: to put hits on the bigger stuff and get some saves.

Can't say I agree with that intention as I like the feel of lots of gaunts. Like waves of brood creatures being pushed forward by the hive mind. What I'm after is increasing the power of gaunts heavy swarms basically. I think my suggestion would make medium or large size swarms more attractive.

Dave wrote:
I haven't run into wanting to hold Hormagaunts back from CC. If anything, I want the extra hit potential. I put the AV bugs up front, then Termagants, Warriors and Hormagaunts in most of my swarms. By the time turn 2 comes around I can usually manage the AVs in CC along with the Hormagaunts with their 40cm move

I also use that basic tactic of everything rushes forward on the march or double turn one. The holding hormagaunts back comes into play when I can't reach CC with my carnifexes/malefactors (quite a common occurence since a wise enemy pulls back from them/FF-assaults them first). I of course still move the AV's up front when I assault, but feel I have to stay behind with the hormagaunts since they're otherwise just easy kills.

Dave wrote:
The EA list had a "1/2 gaunts rule" at one point. It was the grot rule but only half of the brrod creatured killed counted for assault resolution. It was not well received by any of my opponents. Often times I wouldn't bother prepping or supporting (sometimes both) an assault when I knew I could count on little to no "kills" on the bugs in resolution. Your suggestion is a lot more elegant and less powerful, definitely try it out. I'm not sure it would get much support in my group, but if more people are interested I'm sure I can get someone to playtest

Ok, fair enough I will test my idea and try to make a report.


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