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Points formula values for Chaos Powers

 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:42 am 
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Tweaked values adjusted by Transport revision.

Note that I've reverted the Plague Tower from holding a Company to holding 11 stands as that is how it is written in the Chaos PDF. Eleven stands is enough for two Support Detachments and one Greater Daemon, but not quite enough for a Company of Infantry. Also, stating it holds 1 Company would mean it could only hold one Greater Daemon and nothing else, and that's just not how it works. The value used for 11 stands is the sum of the values for 6 stands and 5 stands.
__________________

_ Khorne
Bloodletter: ______________ 63
Chaos Marine: _____________ 39.5
Cultist Fanatic: __________ 26.5
Khorne Berserker: _________ 83
Fleshhound: _______________ 35
Juggernaut: _______________ 51.75
Blood Slaughterer: ________ 47.43
Daemon Prince of Khorne: _ 114
Blood Reaper: _____________ 66
Brass Scorpion: __________ 118
Cauldron of Blood: _______ 110.8
Death Dealer: _____________ 99.23 [Transport 5: Inf 1/1 or W 1/2; 1 LA no slots]
Defiler – Khorne: ________ 120
Tower of Skulls: __________ 95.04
Cannon of Khorne: ________ 174
Doom Blaster: ____________ 125
Bloodthirster: ___________ 660
Primarch Angron: _________ 493
Banelord: ________________ 767.6
Banelord, Command: _______ 883.5
Lord of Battle: __________ 746.5

_ Nurgle
Beast of Nurgle: __________ 97
Chaos Marine: _____________ 39.5
Magi (Nurgle): ____________ 39.18
Nurgling Swarm: ___________ 30
Plaguebearer: ____________ 138
Plague Marine: ____________ 40
Chaos Spawn: ______________ 44.83
Daemon Prince of Nurgle: __ 99.35
Shambler: _________________ 56.63
Breath of Nurgle: ________ 185
Defiler – Nurgle: ________ 145.5
Contagion Plague Engine: __ 76.5
Great Unclean One: _______ 528
Primarch Mortarion: ______ 415.2
Plague Tower: ___________ 1252 [Transport 11: I/GD 1/1 or W 1/1 or LA 1/1 or Cav 1/1]
Bubonis: ________________ 1617


_ Slaanesh
Chaos Marine: _______________ 39.5
Daemonette: _________________ 58
Fiend: ______________________ 24
Magi (Slaanesh): ____________ 55.5
Noise Marine: _______________ 53
Beast Rider: ________________ 26.5
Daemon Prince of Slaanesh: _ 114
Defiler – Slaanesh: ________ 118.5
Hell Strider: ______________ 106
Hell Scourge: ______________ 165
Hell Knight: _______________ 173
Keeper of Secrets: _________ 435
Primarch Fulgrim: __________ 420.5
Altar of Slaanesh: _________ 216
Questor: ___________________ 528
Subjugator: ________________ 519

_ Tzeentch
Automation: _________________ 60
Chaos Marine: _______________ 39.5
Flamer: _____________________ 15.75
Horror, Blue: _______________ 11
Horror, Pink: _______________ 58
Magi (Tzeentch): ____________ 84.97
Disc Rider: _________________ 38
Psychic Screamer: ___________ 46
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: _ 101.5
Defiler – Tzeentch: ________ 108
Doom Wing: _________________ 313.5
Fire Lord: _________________ 419.3
Silver Tower: ______________ 112.5
Warp Palace: _______________ 591.7
Lord of Change: ____________ 542.4
Primarch Magnus: __________ 1117
Warp Vortex: ________________ 92
Skylok: ___________________ 1312


_ Chaos Power list formations
_Khorne
_ Company
Bloodthirster: _____________ 830
Primarch Angron: ___________ 620
World Eaters Century: ______ 465
Lord of Battle +2 weapons: _ 940
__ Chain Fist: ______________ 35
__ Death Storm: _____________ 35
__ Doom Burner: _____________ 50
__ Hell Blade: ______________ 30
Banelord with Command: ____ 1115

_ Support
Berserkers: ________________ 300
Bloodletters: ______________ 245
Blood Slaughterer: _________ 135
Cannon of Khorne: __________ 385
Cultist Fanatics: __________ 110
Defilers: __________________ 310
Daemonic Engines, select three:
__ Blood Reaper each: _______ 55
__ Brass Scorpion each: ____ 100
__ Cauldron of Blood each: __ 95
__ Death Dealer each: _______ 85
__ Tower of Skulls each: ____ 80
__ Doom Blaster each: ______ 110
Fleshhounds: _______________ 135
Juggernauts: _______________ 200

_ Special
Mark of Khorne per model: _ varies by model
Banelord Titan, base: ____ 860
Banelord with Command: ___ 990
Daemon Prince of Khorne: _ 130


_Nurgle
_ Company
Great Unclean One: ___ 665
Primarch Mortarion: __ 525
Death Guard Century: _ 345
Plague Tower: _______ 1580
Bubonis Titan: ______ 2040

_ Support
Beast of Nurgle: __________ 380
Breath of Nurgle: _________ 445
Chaos Spawn: ______________ 190
Contagion Plague Engines: _ 200
Defilers: _________________ 380
Nurgling Swarms: __________ 115
Plaguebearers: ____________ 540
Plague Marine: ____________ 145
Shamblers: ________________ 145

_ Special
Mark of Nurgle per model: _ 25
Bubonis Titan: __________ 1810
Daemon Prince of Nurgle: _ 110
Nurgle Magi: ______________ 45


_Slaanesh
_ Company
Keeper of Secrets: __________ 550
Primarch Fulgrim: ___________ 530
Altar of Slaanesh: __________ 270
Emperor's Children Century: _ 380
House Devine Knights: ______ 1440
House Devine Scourges: _____ 1420

_ Support
Beast Riders: ___ 95
Daemonettes: ___ 225
Defilers: ______ 310
Fiends: _________ 95
Hell Strider: __ 275
Hell Scourge: __ 430
Hell Knight: ___ 450
Noise Marines: _ 190
Questors: _____ 1480
Subjugators: __ 1455

_ Special
Mark of Slaanesh per model: _ 25
Daemon Prince of Slaanesh: _ 130
Slaanesh Magi: ______________ 60


_Tzeentch
_ Company
Lord of Change: _______________ 685
Primarch Magnus: _____________ 1405
Thousand Sons Century BP 5+6: _ 655
Warp Palace: __________________ 745

_ Support
Automation: _______ 445
Defilers: _________ 280
Disc Riders: ______ 135
Doom Wings: _______ 815
Flamers: ___________ 60
Fire Lord: ________ 545
Horrors: __________ 225
Psychic Screamers: _ 50
Silver Towers: ____ 145
Warp Vortex: ______ 130

_ Special
Mark of Tzeentch per model: _ 60
Skylok: ___________________ 1470
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: _ 115
Tzeentch Magi: ______________ 95

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:18 am 
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Update for tweak2.

_ Khorne
Bloodletter: ______________ 60
Chaos Marine: _____________ 40.5
Cultist Fanatic: __________ 26.5
Khorne Berserker: _________ 81
Fleshhound: _______________ 35
Juggernaut: _______________ 50
Blood Slaughterer: ________ 46.35
Daemon Prince of Khorne: _ 110
Blood Reaper: _____________ 75
Brass Scorpion: __________ 119
Cauldron of Blood: _______ 117.6
Death Dealer: _____________ 95.83 [Transport 5: Inf 1/1 or W 1/2; 1 LA no slots]
Defiler – Khorne: ________ 129.8
Tower of Skulls: _________ 103.1
Cannon of Khorne: ________ 245
Doom Blaster: ____________ 157
Bloodthirster: ___________ 655
Primarch Angron: _________ 488
Banelord: ________________ 749
Banelord, Command: _______ 881.8
Lord of Battle: __________ 725.2

_ Nurgle
Beast of Nurgle: __________ 93
Chaos Marine: _____________ 40.5
Magi (Nurgle): ____________ 38.18
Nurgling Swarm: ___________ 29
Plaguebearer: ____________ 135
Plague Marine: ____________ 39
Chaos Spawn: ______________ 42.83
Daemon Prince of Nurgle: _ 103.9
Shambler: _________________ 59.44
Breath of Nurgle: ________ 249.5
Defiler – Nurgle: ________ 150
Contagion Plague Engine: __ 88.5
Great Unclean One: _______ 546
Primarch Mortarion: ______ 417.4
Plague Tower: ___________ 1270 [Transport 11: I/GD 1/1 or W 1/1 or LA 1/1 or Cav 1/1]
Bubonis: ________________ 1800


_ Slaanesh
Chaos Marine: _______________ 40.5
Daemonette: _________________ 55
Fiend: ______________________ 24
Magi (Slaanesh): ____________ 54.5
Noise Marine: _______________ 63
Beast Rider: ________________ 27
Daemon Prince of Slaanesh: _ 125
Defiler – Slaanesh: ________ 132
Hell Strider: ______________ 106
Hell Scourge: ______________ 171
Hell Knight: _______________ 177
Keeper of Secrets: _________ 443.5
Primarch Fulgrim: __________ 403
Altar of Slaanesh: _________ 211
Questor: ___________________ 513.8
Subjugator: ________________ 513.3

_ Tzeentch
Automation: _________________ 59
Chaos Marine: _______________ 40.5
Flamer: _____________________ 16.5
Horror, Blue: _______________ 11
Horror, Pink: _______________ 55
Magi (Tzeentch): ____________ 83.97
Disc Rider: _________________ 40
Psychic Screamer: ___________ 42
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: _ 120
Defiler – Tzeentch: ________ 126
Doom Wing: _________________ 321.8
Fire Lord: _________________ 433.5
Silver Tower: ______________ 124.5
Warp Palace: _______________ 654.4
Lord of Change: ____________ 535.8
Primarch Magnus: __________ 1821
Warp Vortex: _______________ 118
Skylok: ___________________ 1316


__ Chaos Power list formations
_Khorne
_ Company
Bloodthirster: _____________ 825
Primarch Angron: ___________ 615
World Eaters Century: ______ 467
Lord of Battle +2 weapons: _ 914
__ Chain Fist: ______________ 43
__ Death Storm: _____________ 68
__ Doom Burner: ____________ 102
__ Hell Blade: ______________ 30
Banelord with Command: ____ 1111

_ Support
Berserkers: ________________ 292
Bloodletters: ______________ 234
Blood Slaughterer: _________ 135
Cannon of Khorne: __________ 539
Cultist Fanatics: __________ 111
Defilers: __________________ 281
Daemonic Engines, select three:
__ Blood Reaper each: _______ 65
__ Brass Scorpion each: ____ 103
__ Cauldron of Blood each: _ 102
__ Death Dealer each: _______ 83
__ Tower of Skulls each: ____ 89
__ Doom Blaster each: ______ 136
Fleshhounds: _______________ 137
Juggernauts: _______________ 195

_ Special
Mark of Khorne per model: _ varies by model
Banelord Titan, base: ____ 839
Banelord with Command: ___ 988
Daemon Prince of Khorne: _ 123


_Nurgle
_ Company
Great Unclean One: ___ 688
Primarch Mortarion: __ 526
Death Guard Century: _ 346
Plague Tower: _______ 1601
Bubonis Titan: ______ 2268

_ Support
Beast of Nurgle: __________ 363
Breath of Nurgle: _________ 599
Chaos Spawn: ______________ 180
Contagion Plague Engines: _ 230
Defilers: _________________ 390
Nurgling Swarms: __________ 113
Plaguebearers: ____________ 527
Plague Marine: ____________ 140
Shamblers: ________________ 155

_ Special
Mark of Nurgle per model: _ 25
Bubonis Titan: __________ 2016
Daemon Prince of Nurgle: _ 116
Nurgle Magi: ______________ 43


_Slaanesh
_ Company
Keeper of Secrets: __________ 559
Primarch Fulgrim: ___________ 508
Altar of Slaanesh: __________ 266
Emperor's Children Century: _ 415
House Devine Knights: ______ 1449
House Devine Scourges: _____ 1426

_ Support
Beast Riders: ___ 97
Daemonettes: ___ 215
Defilers: ______ 343
Fiends: _________ 94
Hell Strider: __ 276
Hell Scourge: __ 445
Hell Knight: ___ 460
Noise Marines: _ 227
Questors: _____ 1439
Subjugators: __ 1437

_ Special
Mark of Slaanesh per model: _ 25
Daemon Prince of Slaanesh: _ 140
Slaanesh Magi: ______________ 61


_Tzeentch
_ Company
Lord of Change: _______________ 675
Primarch Magnus: _____________ 2294
Thousand Sons Century BP 3+4: _ 655
Warp Palace: __________________ 825

_ Support
Automation: _______ 436
Defilers: _________ 328
Disc Riders: ______ 144
Doom Wings: _______ 837
Flamers: ___________ 64
Fire Lord: ________ 563
Horrors: __________ 215
Psychic Screamers: _ 46
Silver Towers: ____ 162
Warp Vortex: ______ 165

_ Special
Mark of Tzeentch per model: _ 77
Skylok: ___________________ 1473
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: _ 134
Tzeentch Magi: ______________ 94

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:12 pm 
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Minor update to Tzeentch Lord of Change. He cannot make Pop-up attacks.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2015 1:15 am 
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OP updated.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 5:49 pm 
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OP updated.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 4:43 pm 
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OP updated. Found error in Plague Tower (Transport value) & Slaanesh Magi (one Psychic power still had the *2 for being a template in V0.325).

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:45 pm 
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OP updated for V0.33

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:15 am 
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OP updated for V0.34

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:04 pm 
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Hi!

Besides Magnus (dear lord he's expensive!), I wonder about the plague tower engine. Granted its a praetorian, but a review of it would not hurt.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:02 am 
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Plague Tower review it is.

Praetorian: 15
Movement:
_ Terrain: 3
_ 15cm: 3
_ Greater Daemon (IE, Command): 2
Thus 3 *3 *2 = 18
Save: 55.25 (hit locations value *3 = 18.42 *3 = 55.25)
CAF: 576 ((15+3+3+2-5)*(8*2*2))
_ _ _ [error here. The first *2 is because of the Terror ability from being a Greater Daemon. I cannot account for the second *2, thus it may be an error. I probably had that there to account for the Boarding ability, but this is now accounted for in the Transport cost, thus should have been removed from CAF.]
Weapons:
_ Rot Cannon: 108 (6cm Barrage, 50cm, 3+, -4, Ignores Cover, effect spreads; 3.6 *1 *2 *5 *1.5 *2 = 108) [seems to have an error here]
_ Hell Cannon: 13.5 (2 shots, 25cm, 4+, -2, ?; 2 *2 *0.5 *1.5 *3 *1.5 = 13.5) [error here, extra *1.5]
_ Plague Mortar: 10.8 (6cm Barrage, 5+, -1, Ignores Cover, effect spreads; 3.6 *0.5 *1 *2 *1.5 *2 = 10.8)
Special Abilities:
_ Greater Daemon: -5
_ PD(8): 8.1
_ Transport 11 of any class models: 37.5 ((1+1+0.75+1+1+2.75)*(1.5+2+2-0.5))
_ _ Boarding ability is included as one of the +2's in the second set of () above.
_ mystery ability with value of 9*3. Probably old Transport value before it's revision, though why I didn't delete it then I have no idea.
Thus total model cost is currently: 15 +18 +55.25 +576 +108 +13.5 +10.8 -5 +8.1 +37.5 +27 = 864.2 which after formation adjustments comes to 1089.

Sheesh, so many errors. I'm going to have to go back over everything with a fine-tooth comb one of these days to see what else I've missed. As far as I can tell, the Rot Cannon should not have either Ignores Cover nor effect spreads and the Hell Cannon has an extra *1.5 modifier for no reason at all. Also the extra *2 on the CAF is having a huge impact. Removing those errors adjusts this thusly:

Praetorian: 15
Movement:
_ Terrain: 3
_ 15cm: 3
_ Greater Daemon (IE, Command): 2
Thus 3 *3 *2 = 18
Save: 55.25 (hit locations value *3 = 18.42 *3 = 55.25)
CAF: 288 ((15+3+3+2-5)*(8*2))
Weapons:
_ Rot Cannon: 36 (6cm Barrage, 50cm, 3+, -4; 3.6 *1 *2 *5 = 36)
_ Hell Cannon: 9 (2 shots, 25cm, 4+, -2; 2 *2 *0.5 *1.5 *3 = 9)
_ Plague Mortar: 10.8 (6cm Barrage, 5+, -1, Ignores Cover, effect spreads; 3.6 *0.5 *1 *2 *1.5 *2 = 10.8)
Special Abilities:
_ Greater Daemon: -5
_ PD(8): 8.1
_ Transport 11 of any class models: 37.5 ((1+1+0.75+1+1+2.75)*(1.5+2+2-0.5))
_ _ Boarding ability is included as one of the +2's in the second set of () above.
Thus total model cost is currently: 15 +18 +55.25 +288 +36 +9 +10.8 -5 +8.1 +37.5 = 472.7 which after formation adjustments comes to 595.5 which rounds to 596.

A much better, and more accurate, value, yes?

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:39 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Plague Tower review it is.

Praetorian: 15
Movement:
_ Terrain: 3
_ 15cm: 3
_ Greater Daemon (IE, Command): 2
Thus 3 *3 *2 = 18
Save: 55.25 (hit locations value *3 = 18.42 *3 = 55.25)
CAF: 576 ((15+3+3+2-5)*(8*2*2))
_ _ _ [error here. The first *2 is because of the Terror ability from being a Greater Daemon. I cannot account for the second *2, thus it may be an error. I probably had that there to account for the Boarding ability, but this is now accounted for in the Transport cost, thus should have been removed from CAF.]
Weapons:
_ Rot Cannon: 108 (6cm Barrage, 50cm, 3+, -4, Ignores Cover, effect spreads; 3.6 *1 *2 *5 *1.5 *2 = 108) [seems to have an error here]
_ Hell Cannon: 13.5 (2 shots, 25cm, 4+, -2, ?; 2 *2 *0.5 *1.5 *3 *1.5 = 13.5) [error here, extra *1.5]
_ Plague Mortar: 10.8 (6cm Barrage, 5+, -1, Ignores Cover, effect spreads; 3.6 *0.5 *1 *2 *1.5 *2 = 10.8)
Special Abilities:
_ Greater Daemon: -5
_ PD(8): 8.1
_ Transport 11 of any class models: 37.5 ((1+1+0.75+1+1+2.75)*(1.5+2+2-0.5))
_ _ Boarding ability is included as one of the +2's in the second set of () above.
_ mystery ability with value of 9*3. Probably old Transport value before it's revision, though why I didn't delete it then I have no idea.
Thus total model cost is currently: 15 +18 +55.25 +576 +108 +13.5 +10.8 -5 +8.1 +37.5 +27 = 864.2 which after formation adjustments comes to 1089.

Sheesh, so many errors. I'm going to have to go back over everything with a fine-tooth comb one of these days to see what else I've missed. As far as I can tell, the Rot Cannon should not have either Ignores Cover nor effect spreads and the Hell Cannon has an extra *1.5 modifier for no reason at all. Also the extra *2 on the CAF is having a huge impact. Removing those errors adjusts this thusly:

Praetorian: 15
Movement:
_ Terrain: 3
_ 15cm: 3
_ Greater Daemon (IE, Command): 2
Thus 3 *3 *2 = 18
Save: 55.25 (hit locations value *3 = 18.42 *3 = 55.25)
CAF: 288 ((15+3+3+2-5)*(8*2))
Weapons:
_ Rot Cannon: 36 (6cm Barrage, 50cm, 3+, -4; 3.6 *1 *2 *5 = 36)
_ Hell Cannon: 9 (2 shots, 25cm, 4+, -2; 2 *2 *0.5 *1.5 *3 = 9)
_ Plague Mortar: 10.8 (6cm Barrage, 5+, -1, Ignores Cover, effect spreads; 3.6 *0.5 *1 *2 *1.5 *2 = 10.8)
Special Abilities:
_ Greater Daemon: -5
_ PD(8): 8.1
_ Transport 11 of any class models: 37.5 ((1+1+0.75+1+1+2.75)*(1.5+2+2-0.5))
_ _ Boarding ability is included as one of the +2's in the second set of () above.
Thus total model cost is currently: 15 +18 +55.25 +288 +36 +9 +10.8 -5 +8.1 +37.5 = 472.7 which after formation adjustments comes to 595.5 which rounds to 596.

A much better, and more accurate, value, yes?


Oh yes! Much, much better! :)

No worries on the errors, its a massive amount of stuff to do.

You could probably review them once the actual army lists revisions are tackled. that way any new ones get their cost calculated as well as a double check of what is there already.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:13 pm 
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Oh, right, you mentioned Primarch Magnus as well. Sure, let's review him again.

Knight pinning-class model, base cost 10
Movement:
_ terrain access as Infantry: 2.75
_ Move 10cm: 2
_ Command (Greater Daemon): 2
Thus Move cost: 11 (2.75 *2 *2)
Save 2+: 15 (5 *3)
CAF of +10: 235 (( 10 +3 +2 +2 -5) *20) [20 from CAF 10 *2 from Terror (Greater Daemon)]
Beam of Power: 1418
_ one shot per turn: 2
_ Range 100cm: *2
_ To Hit 2+: *3
_ TSM -6: *7
_ Ignores Cover: *1.5
_ Penetrating +3: *2.5
_ Physical Psychic: *1.5
_ Command: *1.5
_ Destroys Buildings: *2
Thus 2 *2 *3 *7 *1.5 *2.5 *1.5 *1.5 *2 = 1418
Special Abilities:
_ Greater Daemon base: -5
_ gains 3 Chaos Reward cards: 45
Model cost then comes to 10 +11 +15 +235 +1418 +40 (45-5) = 1729

Morale adjusts that to 2419.9
Company formation adjusts to 2177.91 which rounds to 2178.

Obviously, most of his cost is the Beam, though the CAF value is a big chunk as well, as it is with all such models. I may have to adjust the CAF part of the formula a bit. Not sure what to do about the Beam. Perhaps some of the modifiers could be adjusted. Probably Physical Psychic could have it's value reduced as very few weapons have it and it only really affects Daemons and similar creatures, of which there are few.


Oh, I just noticed a thing. The Plague Tower is going up a bit again, as there should be *1.5 modifiers on it's weapons for it being a Command model. Sorry about forgetting that the other day, that means that some of the *1.5 modifiers were misidentified on my part. Plague Tower is now 500.6 for model cost and 631 for Company cost.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:55 pm 
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I've only recently started properly looking at the Chaos list and must admit I do have my concerns.

1) A lot of Chaos units have increased in value rather than decreased with many other forces. Chaos were always a tricky force to win with as it was, I had grave doubts about how effective they will be now that for certain forces the points values (such as IG, Orks) will now go a lot further.

2) Greater Daemons: with other forces you have the choice as to whether or not you would invest serious amounts of points in the likes of Praetorians and Titans, with Chaos you have no choice whatsoever. You have to start your force with a Greater Daemon - the costs have to be reasonable otherwise no one will use Chaos with the new system. Following on from this...

3) Primarch Magnus: I appreciate the explanation about how his cost is arrived at but as powerful as he is, he isn't worth 2K worth of points. He is one unit and his all-powerful beam can kill one enemy and secure one objective per turn. Think what you could buy in other armies for that cost; both in terms of power and versatility Magnus would be a goner. I'm not saying he wouldn't dispatch some opponents but killing troops / destroying vehicles one a time per turn isn't going to make for a balanced or fun game.

4) Daemon Engines of Khorne: I'm interested to know if there has been any downward grading of costings for the Engines since they are severely hamstrung by the enforced minimum of having to be on advance orders every turn. In Net Epic Gold I never got the the chance to fire them until the Advance Fire Phase in turn 2, by which time they were usually destroyed.

Anyway, just a few of my thoughts...

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:32 pm 
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Good points there. I don't disagree with anything, but a few thoughts.

1. Do recall that the Powers may also freely choose any Support or Special formations from the Chaos Renegades list, so they do have access to cheap troops with which to counter other factions' cheap troop options. Cultists are almost criminally inexpensive.

2. True, the Greater Daemons themselves have all gone up, some more than others. For example, Fulgrim and Mortarion have only gone up a bit. However, each Power does have options that have reduced in cost. The various Centuries have all dropped in price, and one of the newer options (the Altar of Slaanesh) actually reduced in cost. Thus each Power does have options.

3. Very good points there. With him, and other examples that have come up recently, I'm thinking that the recent revision to the CAF system is producing numbers that are just too high, especially for high end CAF values. I'll have to think about how to fix that. There are also likely a few Weapon Modifiers that could use tweaking. Also adding Chaos Cards to your force. Currently the last is worth 15 per Card, perhaps that is too high?

_ Also, Primarch Magnus is a lot like a Squat Praetorian. One should choose him when facing worthwhile targets (IE, other Titans, Praetorians, and Greater Daemons) and not when facing forces without them. Under 2nd edition, EVERY Chaos Powers force would include him because he was far, far too good for his cost. Thus he needs to be expensive to make a Powers player think twice (or more) before including him in their army. Not perhaps as expensive as he currently is, but expensive.

4. Not currently. That is an interesting idea though. Currently, the Special Ability costs for the Daemon Engine ability vary by Power and are:
Khorne: 6
Nurgle: 0 and a *2 modifier to CAF value
Slaanesh: 30
Tzeentch: 0 and 15 per added Chaos Reward Card
_ I'm not certain how I came up with the values for Khorne and Slaanesh. There may be formulas or they may just be arbitrary, I'll have to poke around a bit more later.

How would people feel about a modifier being added to the costs for weapons where the model cannot use First Fire orders? While this would mostly apply to the Khorne Daemon Engines (that are not also Greater Daemons), it could also apply to some Flyers and other models that players create later. Would a value of *0.5 be about right? (IE, halving the weapon cost.) Perhaps *0.75?

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:04 pm 
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Hi!

My thoughts.

1. A cost of 15 per chaos cards is too high. I would place it around 10 and see what that gives us.

2. I also agree that CAF values a slightly too high on the end (high CAF values). In this case I feel that not all CAF increments are the same weight. I would say CAF values between 0 and 6 have similar weight per integer of increment, but once you get to values of 7 or above there isn't a whole lot of practical difference in game between a CAF of 7 or 10, since those usually win CC against most units with CAF of 6 or lower.

3. The Slaanesh special ability value of 30 seems quite high to me. If these values turn out to be arbitrary I'd set Khorne at 5 and Slaanesh at 20 (or less).

4. I definitely agree some modifier to the weapon for not being able to fire on first fire is in order (its a rather big drawback), A value of 0.5 would be appropriate.

5. As for Magnus, I wondered for all unique units in general. Should there be some sort of modifier (discount) for them since you can only ever have one? Unlike other greater demons which are more plentiful and their cost should remain as is.

As I have said before he is a RIDICULOUSLY overpowered unit. Basically a flying anti-titan weapon with invulnerability (chaos cards). He is easily better than any common titan (Magnus has no vulnerability). He may not be worth 2k, but DEFINITELY over 1k. If players want him cheaper HE MUST BE NERFED. He is simply too good for anything under 1000 points.

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