Updated to most recent version of the formula (V0.46)
______________________

Model or Formation name _ V0.46 Cost _ vs 0.43 _ vs Gold

_ Eldar models
Avatar: ______________ 131.92 _ -18.375 _ +131.915
Bonesinger: ___________ 37.4 ___ -0.875 __ -87.6
Bonesinger Jet Bike: __ 62.15 __ -0.55 ___ -62.85
Exarch: ______________ 155.4 __ -63 ______ +55.4
Farseer: _____________ 140.82 __ -7.35 ____ -9.1833
Farseer on Jet Bike: _ 208.09 _ -11.13 ___ +58.0867
Forward Observer: _____ 47.04 ___ 0 _____ -102.96
Forward Observer, JB __ 89.92 _ +15.16 ___ -60.078
Harlequin: ____________ 24 ____ -10.8 ____ -13.5
Master Mime: __________ 29.4 _____ 0 _____ -20.6
Pathfinder: ___________ 37.325 _ -1.5552 _ +12.3248
Warlock: _____________ 379.19 __ _7.35 __ +254.19
Warlock on Jet Bike: _ 438.06 _ -11.8 ___ +313.06

Dark Reaper Phoenix Lord ______ 122.7 ___ -28.8 __ +60.2
Dire Avenger Phoenix Lord ______ 60.6 ___ -28.8 __ +29.35
Fire Dragon Phoenix Lord _______ 62.625 _ -31.5 __ +37.625
Howling Banshee Phoenix Lord ___ 59.34 __ -52.92 _ +21.84
Shining Spear Phoenix Lord ____ 136.08 _ -148.14 _ +86.08
Striking Scorpion Phoenix Lord _ 56.82 __ -48.51 _ +19.32
Swooping Hawk Phoenix Lord ____ 112.68 _ -112.5 __ +75.18
Warp Spider Phoenix Lord _______ 89.447 _ -92.50 _ +39.4469

Guardian: ______ 10.45 __ 0 ___ -14.55
Guardian Heavy _ 26.95 __ 0 ___ -23.05
Wraithguard: ___ 42.17 _ -2.1 _ +17.7

Dark Reaper: _______ 65.4 ____ -1.35 ___ +2.9
Dire Avenger: ______ 22.2 ____ -2.7 ____ -9.05
Fire Dragon: _______ 23.55 ___ -2.7 ____ -1.45
Howling Banshee: ___ 22.56 ___ -9.72 __ -14.94
Striking Scorpion: _ 21.48 ___ -8.91 __ -16.02
Swooping Hawk: _____ 54.72 __ -16.83 __ +17.22
Warp Spider: _______ 35.156 _ -33.319 _ -14.8438

Jet Bike: _______ 42.818 _ -8.2225 _ +2.8175
Shining Spear: __ 64.71 _ -38.67 __ +14.71
Vyper Jet Bike: _ 50.518 _ -2.1725 _ +0.5175

War Walker: _ 38.5 _ -3.3 _ -11.5
Wraithlord: _ 51.1 __ 0 ____ +1.1

Fire Prism: __________ 89.513 _ +7.15 _ +39.5125
Falcon: ______________ 71.913 _ +7.15 _ +21.9125
Falcon, Command: ____ 147.7 __ +13.65 _ +97.7
Firestorm: __________ 163.58 __ +8.31 _ +13.5838
Peregrine: ___________ 83.751 _ +3.575 _ +8.751
Peregrine, Command: _ 166.78 __ +7 ____ +91.78
Wave Serpent: ________ 67.543 _ -0.75 __ -7.4567

Bright Lance: _ 26.125 __ +2.475 __ -8.875
Vibro-Cannon: _ 50.256 __ +2.475 _ +15.2563

Doomweaver: __ 63.223 _ +14.726 _ -11.7775
Unicorn: _____ 79.2 ____ +3.575 __ +4.2
Warp Hunter _ 140 _____ +48.73 __ +40.0025

Fire Gale: __________ 110.4 ___ -4.8 _ +25.4
Fire Reaper: _________ 93.6 ___ -7.2 __ +8.6
Fire Storm: _________ 133.92 __ -4.8 _ +48.92
Bright Stallion: ____ 114 ____ -10.8 _ +14
Bright Stalker: _____ 115.2 __ -10.8 _ +15.2
Towering Destroyer: _ 130.8 __ -18 ___ +15.8
Towering Fury: ______ 132 ____ -18 ___ +24

Cobra: _________ 322.67 _ +181.445 _ +72.6713
Scorpion: ______ 156.35 __ +32.945 _ -93.6488
Storm Serpent: _ 102.67 ___ +2.26 _ -197.329
Tempest Tank: __ 159.82 ___ -3.575 __ -5.18375
Void Spinner: __ 139.63 ___ +2.255 _ -60.3688

Nightwing: _ 147.79 _ -64.625 __ +47.785
Phoenix: ___ 227.19 _ -15.469 __ -72.8088
Vampyre: ___ 211.04 _ +17.875 _ +111.035

Phantom Titan hull: ________ 264.44 _ -57.96 _ -35.5575
Revenant Scout Titan hull: _ 486.08 _ +46.6 _ +286.084
Warlock Titan hull: ________ 433.49 _ -86.94 _ +33.4925

_ Eldar Formations
_Company
Guardian Host: ____ 141 _____ 0 __ -309
Falcon Host: ______ 487 ___ +48 ___ +37
Defender Warhost: _ 637 ___ +49 __ -213
Aggressor Warhost_ 1272 ___ +49 _ +1272 (as Defender, but replace Falcon with Peregrine)
Jet Bike Host: ____ 513 ___ -69 ___ -37
Spirit Host: ______ 495 ____ -9 ____ -5
Peregrine Host ____ 754 ___ +32 __ +754 (as Falcon, but replace Falcon with Peregrine)
Tempest Host: _____ 720 ___ -15 __ -280

_Special
Bonesinger, C.Falcon: ____ 67 ___ +2 __ -58
Bonesinger, C.Peregrine __ 71 ___ +1 __ -79
Bonesinger, Jet Bike: ____ 62 ___ -1 __ -63
Exarchs: ________________ 466 _ -189 __ +66
Farseer, C.Falcon: ______ 170 ___ -5 __ +20
Farseer, C.Peregrine: ___ 174 ___ -6 ___ -1
Farseer, Jet Bike: ______ 208 __ -11 __ +58
Forward Observer, CF: ____ 77 ___ +3 __ -73
Forward Observer, CP: ____ 80 ___ +1 __ -95
Forward Observer, JB: ____ 90 __ +15 __ -60
Harlequin Troupe: ________ 72 __ -32 __ -78
Master Mime: _____________ 29 ____ 0 __ -21
Pathfinders: ____________ 112 ___ -5 __ +12
Warlock, C.Falcon: ______ 409 ___ -4 _ +284
Warlock, C.Peregrine: ___ 413 ___ -5 _ +313
Warlock, Jet Bike: ______ 438 __ -11 _ +313

Phantom Titan hull 2 arm 2 wing: _________ 264 __ -58 ___ +22
Phantom Titan Host, 3 hull 6 arm 6 wing: _ 793 _ -174 __ -107
Revenant Titans: _________________________ 972 __ +92 __ +472
Warlock Titan 2 arm 2 wing: ______________ 433 __ -87 ___ +33

_Support
Guardian Detachment: __ 47 ____ 0 __ -103
Defender Detachment: _ 221 __ +17 ___ -79
Aggressor Detachment _ 424 __ +16 __ +424 (as Defender, but replace Falcon with Peregrine)
Wraithguard: _________ 171 ___ -8 ___ +71

Dark Reaper: _______ 196 ___ -4 __ -54
Dire Avenger: _______ 67 ___ -8 __ -58
Fire Dragon: ________ 71 ___ -8 __ -29
Howling Banshee: ____ 68 __ -19 __ -72
Shining Spears: ____ 194 _ -116 ___ -6
Striking Scorpion: __ 64 __ -27 __ -86
Swooping Hawk: _____ 164 __ -51 __ +14
Warp Spider: _______ 105 _ -100 __ -95

Jet Bike Squadron: _ 163 __ -31 __ -37
Vyper Squadron: ____ 192 ___ -8 __ -58

War Walker: __ 90 ___ -8 __ -60
Wraithlord: _ 204 ____ 0 ___ +4

Fire Prism: _______ 90 ___ +8 __ +40
Falcon Squadron: _ 168 __ +17 __ +18
Firestorm AA: ____ 164 ___ +9 __ +14
Peregrine: _______ 251 __ +10 __ -49
Wave Serpent: ____ 101 __ -98 __ -49

Bright Lance Battery __ 61 ___ +6 __ -39
Vibro-Cannon Battery _ 117 ___ +6 __ +17

Doomweaver: ______ 95 __ +12 __ -55
Unicorn Battery _ 119 ___ +6 __ -31
Warp Hunter: ____ 210 __ +73 __ +10

Fire Knight Detachment: any 3 of
_ Fire Gale each: ___________ 86 ___ -4 ___ +2.667
_ Fire Reaper each: _________ 73 ___ -5 __ -10.333
_ Fire Storm each: _________ 104 ___ -4 __ +19.667
Bright Warriors: any 3 of
_ Bright Stallion each: _____ 89 ___ -8 __ -11
_ Bright Stalker each: ______ 90 ___ -8 __ -10
Towering Knights: any 3 of
_ Towering Destroyer each: _ 102 __ -14 __ -14.667
_ Towering Fury each: ______ 103 __ -14 __ -13.667

Vampyre troop Carrier: __ 211 __ +18 _ +111
Nightwing Squadron: _____ 345 _ -151 __ +45
Phoenix Fighter Bomber: _ 227 __ -16 __ -73

Cobra: _________ 323 ___ -2 ___ +73
Scorpion: ______ 156 __ +32 ___ -94
Storm Serpent: _ 103 ___ +3 __ -197
Tempest: _______ 373 ___ -8 __ -127
Void Spinner: __ 140 ___ +3 ___ -60

_ Eldar Titan Weapons
Distortion Cannon: ____ 348 ___ 0 __ +273
Flamewind: _____________ 58 ___ 0 ___ +13
Heat Lance: ____________ 54 __ -9 ____ +4
Power Fist: ____________ 39 ___ 0 ___ -11
Psychic Lance: ________ 132 _ +44 ___ +57 aka Psycannon
Psychic Lance Warlock _ 198 _ +66 __ +123 aka Psycannon
Pulsar: _______________ 339_ +170 __ +189
Pulse Laser: __________ 104 _ +52 __ not on chart
Tremor Cannon: ________ 232 ___ 0 __ +147
Wing Lascannon: ________ 58 ___ 0 ___ -17
Wing Missile Launcher: _ 26 ___ 0 ____ +1

_Craftworld formations

_ _ Optional Bonus
Eldar Avatar _ 132 _ -18 __ +132

_ _ Hosts
Biel Tan Phoenix _ varies
_ Dark Reaper Phoenix Lord _______ 123 __ -28 __ +60
_ Dire Avenger Phoenix Lord _______ 61 __ -29 __ +29
_ Fire Dragon Phoenix Lord ________ 63 __ -32 __ +38
_ Howling Banshee Phoenix Lord ____ 59 __ -53 __ +22
_ Shining Spear Phoenix Lord _____ 136 _ -148 __ +86
_ Striking Scorpion Phoenix Lord __ 57 __ -49 __ +19
_ Swooping Hawk Phoenix Lord _____ 113 _ -113 __ +75
_ Warp Spider Phoenix Lord ________ 89 __ -92 __ +39
Iyanden Wraith ________ 529 ___ -11 ___ +29
Saim-Hann Wind Rider __ 860 __ -110 __ +210
Ulthwe Black Guardian _ 188 _____ 0 __ -262

_ _ Special
Iyanden Spiritseer _________________ 170 __ -5 __ +70 (using stats for Farseer as Spiritseer has no stats in the Eldar pdf)
Saim-Hann Farseer on Jet Bike ______ 208 _ -11 __ +58
Siam-Hann Warlock on Jet Bike ______ 438 _ -11 _ +313

_ _ Support
Alaitoc Rangers ______ 112 ____ -5 ___ +12
Saim-Hann Revenants __ 972 ____ +2 __ +472
_ each _______________ 486 ____ +1 __ NA
Ulthwe Guardian Storm _ 81 _____ 0 __ -119
Storm Aggressor ______ 332 ___ +11 __ +332 (as Ulthwe Guardian Storm + 4 Peregrine; BP 4)


Sample Army ___________ v046 __ 043 ___ Gold
---Saim-Hann Craftworld (pdf p6)
SH Wind Rider Host _____ 860 __ 970 __ 650
-Sp SH Warlock-Jetbike _ 438 __ 449 __ 125
-Su SH Revenants _______ 972 __ 879 __ 400
-Su Unicorn ____________ 119 __ 113 __ 150
-Su Doomweaver __________ 95 ___ 73 __ 150
-Su War Walker __________ 90 ___ 98 __ 150
Falcon Host ___________ 487 __ 439 __ 450
-Sp SH Warlock-Jetbike _ 438 __ 449 __ 125
-Su Fire Prism __________ 90 ___ 82 ___ 50
-Su Fire Prism __________ 90 ___ 82 ___ 50
-Su Fire Prism __________ 90 ___ 82 ___ 50
-Su Fire Prism __________ 90 ___ 82 ___ 50
-Su Fire Prism __________ 90 ___ 82 ___ 50
Alaitoc Falcon Host ____ 487 __ 439 __ 450
-Su Alaitoc Rangers ____ 112 __ 117 __ 100
--- Totals ___________ 4546 _ 4437 _ 3000

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Hi!

The mime seems to cause all sorts of problems.

I'd equate it to some mid-level power used before and assign it that cost.

Other than testing it, that all we could do for now.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

Top post edited with Master Mime at 20 points, and I made an error on the Revenant Titan which I fixed.
___________________

_ Eldar Formations with BP 100% default
_Company
Guardian Host: 90
Falcon Host: 365
Defender Warhost: 435
Jet Bike Host: 345
Spirit Host: 420
Tempest Host: 995

_Special
Bonesinger: 40
Exarchs: 760
Farseer: 150
Forward Observer: 60
Harlequin Troupe: 215
Master Mime: 20
Pathfinders: 325
Warlock: 345
Phantom Titan hull: 565 +2 arm + 2 wing
Phantom Titan Host: varies
Revenant Titans: 1665
Warlock Titan: 640 +2 arm + 2 wing
Peregrine option: +5

_Support
Guardian Detachment: 35
Defender Detachment: 175
Wraithguard: 230

Dire Avenger: 70
Fire Dragon: 75
Howling Banshee: 130
Shining Spears: 160
Striking Scorpion: 115
Swooping Hawk: 170
Warp Spider: 230
Dark Reaper: 180

Jet Bike Squadron: 135
Vyper Squadron: 160

War Walker: 90
Wraithlord: 280

Fire Prism: 135
Falcon Squadron: 165
Firestorm AA: 280
Peregrine: 210
Wave Serpent: 65

Bright Lance Battery: 45
Vibro-Cannon Battery: 50

Doomweaver: 45
Unicorn Battery: 80
Warp Hunter: 105

Fire Knight Detachment: any 3 of
_ Fire Gale: 120 each
_ Fire Reaper: 95 each
_ Fire Storm: 110 each
Bright Warriors: any 3 of
_ Bright Stallion: 125 each
_ Bright Stalker: 130 each
Towering Knights: any 3 of
_ Towering Destroyer: 140 each
_ Towering Fury: 140 each

Vampyre troop Carrier: 255
Nightwing Squadron: 430
Phoenix Fighter Bomber: 545

Cobra: 175
Scorpion: 115
Storm Serpent: 140
Tempest Squadron: 550
Void Spinner: 390

_ Eldar Titan Weapons
Distortion Cannon: 75
Flamewind: 100
Heat Lance: 110
Power Fist: 65
Psychic Lance: 50
Pulsar: 435
Tremor Cannon: 135
Wing Lascannon: 100
Wing Missile Launcher: 20

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Is this just for one, or for two?

I thought it was for two, but we'll let Magnus clarify.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

Yep, just for one. Like the Warhound Titan, these little buggers came out rather expensive. Just for clarity, I'll walk through it step by step.

Movement: It's unitclass is Titan so 18; Move of 30cm is 6; Agile 2, Jump Jets 1.5; so 18*6*2*1.5 = 324. For comparison, the Phantom is 18*5*2 = 180.

Save: the values (6 for each 1+, 5 for each 2+, etc) for it's locations' saves added up comes to 124. This is about half of the Phantom or Warlock Titans' values (252 and 256 respectively).

CAF: It has a CAF of +7 so 7*4= 28

Weapons: It has 2 Pulse Lasers, a Missile Launcher, and a Scatter Laser.
A Pulse Laser can be fired in either or two ways each game turn, thus it's value is the average of the values for each mode. Single Shot mode is: 4 *1.5 (75cm) *2 (3+) *3 (TSM -2) *2 (1d3 hits) *1.5 (damages buildings) = 108 and Barrage mode is: 4 *8 (8 BP) *1.5 (75cm) *2 (3+) = 96. (108+96)/2 = 102. Thus total cost for these is 204.
Missile Launcher: just found an error. I forgot to adjust this back up for it's Barrage value. Thanks for asking, as I may not have noticed otherwise. Anyway, it's value would be: 4 *4 (4 BP) *2 (100cm) = 32
Scatter Laser: 4 *3 (#At) *0.5 (25cm) = 6
Total weapons cost is: 204 +32 +6 = 242

Special Abilities:
Hard to Hit: 15
Eldar Titan Holo Field: 25
Total: 40

Total single model cost is thus: 324 +124 +28 +242 +40 =759 with correction to Missile Launcher above.

This adjusts the cost of it's Special Formation to 1700.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Apologies. Immediately after posting that I noticed another error. I apparently forgot that I had realized that I should not be charging for 'to hit' values that are the default for a given number of BP for a Barrage. This changes things a bit.

Pulse Laser: as a to hit of 3+ is the default for 8 BP, that multiplier is removed, resulting in that mode being worth 48, and the final value is 78. Thus two are 156.

This adjusts the final single model cost of a Revenant to 711, and the Formation cost to 1595.

Also, I apparently forgot to adjust the to hit for the Pulsar above as well. This adjustment brings it's cost to 320.

Just noticed the Nightwing was not adjusted for its base cost for Barrage. Its single model cost is 203 and Formation cost is 445.

Yeesh, I really have to look through these things better.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

If that's the case then I doubt very much if any will ever see the table top in Platinum edition...

Hi!

I think it has to do with the overvaluation of the "jump" capability as that sort of movement is rather expensive.

If you remove the cost of that ability what would it come out to?

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

Jump Jets need to have a value somewhere. Their value of *1.5 is equal to that of Jump Packs, as they do basically the same thing even though the method for the Jump Jets is a bit more complicated. In my view, the only logical place for them is as an adjustment to the Move value, as they affect how the model moves across the battlefield. Still, I suppose it isn't really quite as powerful as Jump Packs, so should perhaps be reduced.

Still, just for the sake of discussion, if the modifier were entirely removed the single model cost is reduced to 603 and the Formation cost to 1350. Thus removing it entirely is not the answer, as that is still rather pricy.

If the modifier is reduced to *1.25 (half it's current value), single model cost is 657 and Formation cost is 1470. This might be more accurate and more balanced.

Something else to consider is that unlike the Phantom or Warlock Titan entries, the Revenant entry includes ALL of it's weaponry. The other two do not. So for a fair comparison, one would have to select two arm weapons and two wing weapons. Let's look at how that works out.

A Phantom is currently 565 on it's own. If we select the least expensive possible combination of weapons: 2x Wing Missile Launcher (20 each), 2x Psychic Lance (50 each); that adds 140 for a final Formation value of 705. If we select the most expensive possible combination: 2x Wing Lascannon (100 each), 2x Pulsar (320 each); that adds 840 for a final Formation value of 1405. Thus any given Phantom Titan will have a cost between 705 and 1405. Thus, depending on the weapons selected, a Phantom will be worth anywhere from 1 to 2 Revenants. This seems about right to me. However, I'm not the only voice here, so what do you all think?

As a whole, all Titans and Praetorians are coming out of the system as being very much more expensive than in Gold, so it's not just the Eldar.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Hi!

Ah, I missed the fact that it is price with weapons, while others are without weapons.

It's where they should be then.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

As primarily a Space Marine player I would look at this and think "For the cost of 2 revenant titans I can bring 3 land raider companies" and I would expect that 60 lascannon shots would take down at least one of them a turn. Now, I say this having not played for many years, so my memory might not be particularly great and I'm probably missing something fairly big here, but that example match up just seems a bit one sided.

Hi!

I'm sure Magnus can do the math better, but land raiders hit on a 5+, so approximately a 33% chance to hit. However the holofields will block at least half of those shots. .50 x .33= .165 or 16.5% per shot to hit and get through shields. This percentage is further reduced by scatter and finally the armor save. So the per hit chance or taking it out is rather small.

This has actually prompted me to do a test. All those land raiders versus the revenant with standard terrain and see what happens.

I'm willing to bet the revenant can do pretty good given a competent commander.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

That very well may be true. Go ahead and do some testing on that if you are able to, as how Primarch said he was going to.

Also, thank you for the cross-faction comparison. While the formula is intended to make everything points-balanced in comparison to everything else (unlike the old system where each Faction was only balanced against itself), it is likely not done yet. I seriously expect that it will need significant tweaking before being done. This exact sort of comparison will be needed to figure out what needs tweaking.

On that note, if you have never played with a Revenant Titan, please do so. I haven't myself either, but what I've gathered from several battle reports is that they are very powerful and versatile.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Hi!

I've used revenants quite extensively. Its another unit too good for its points. Even with some relative nerfing over the years, it a steal at its current points.

The cost analysis has revealed quite o few truths about the old points scheme, as well as pointing out the gross underestimation of certain units (mainly titans).

Funnily enough the current titan cost are more in keeping with the old AT values which were much much higher than the SM 2 era.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules