OP updated.

Found and fixed an error with Tarantula model not having correct modifier for Morale of --. Changed Support formation value as well.

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Craig & I were discussing the Thunderbolts and Marauders during our game yesterday. We both feel that the Thunderbolts are something we will be less inclined to take in future because we prefer the superior firepower of the Marauder which is also 100 points cheaper. The Thunderbolts move faster but they also require to move into enemy range to get their shots off. Even ignoring the points costs (old or new) altogether we both feel if we had to pick between Marauders and Thunderbolts we would always opt for the former.

Food for thought anyway.

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Hi!

Can't help you there Bissler.

The formula will have to adapt soon to take into account the new flier system.

So unless your planning to use that and how their cost will adapt to that system once those flier stats are defined, I'm not really seeing how the costs as they are will change, since that is how their gold stats place them cost wise.

Primarch

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Well, that's an interesting comment, but not really constructive. What are you trying to say? Are you saying that you think that Movement is too costly? That weapons are too cheap? What do you think should be modified?

I disagree with a fundamental point. The Marauder (presumably Bomber rather than Destroyer sub-type, but it applies to them as well) also has to "move into enemy range to get their shots off" as most models in the game (that can shoot at Flyers) have Range values of 50cm or higher, and all of the weapons on both Marauder variants have 50cm Ranges. Many models even have Range values of 75cm, so even High Altitude won't help them much.

[I also find it rather ironic that the "Bomber" variant has no bombs, but the other one does. That is beside the point though.]

I would have thought that the Thunderbolt should be intended to engage other Flyers rather than ground targets, but the current Flyer rules (both versions; page 24 and page 26) make that impossible as none of the Thunderbolt's weapons are Turreted or described as firing 360. I imagine that the new Flyer rules for NE6 will change that by defining the Thunderbolt as an 'Interceptor' or whatever term it uses, but that still won't change things for Gold.

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Hi Magnus,

In short, not looking for a full revision of the system, on the whole we really like it. This is now me throwing up a few observations from our experience of playing the system.

Yes, there are a fair number of weapons with 75cm range if you take Marines, IG, Eldar, Squats. Less so for the likes of Orks and Khorne (less sure about other Chaos factions). Also, even those shorter range weapons that the likes of Tactical Marines have will be able to pick off Thunderbolts.

We've also spotted that there is less incentive to take Bike Companies because of the higher cost due to the HQ units, better instead to take individual units. This is something that may be addressed with the new formations that Primarch is working on.

Just to reiterate, these observations are not meant as us having a go. They may not be particularly useful but I just thought you might be interested in getting some feedback.

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Ah, gotcha. I guess I misinterpreted. Still, it is possible that the formula is putting too much 'weight' on certain stats and not enough on others. Like how some people feel that some SA's may be overvalued. They probably are.

As to Bike Companies, well, that is a side effect of something that was over powered for it's value in Gold now having a value that corresponds with it's power. People will choose them less often. That may be a good thing, as perhaps, players will try other formations that they previously used less often - or never - as they now have more attractive point costs.

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Yeah, I think you are on to something. The Move values (formula) for most models are single digit numbers, but then Flyers suddenly have double and triple digit values. While Flyers ARE a lot more powerful than ground-based models due to their special rules, that much difference may be overdoing it.

Thus once I'm done posting the updated values for V0.41 I think I'll try lowering the multiplier values for several Move altering SA. I may change a few other SA from fixed value to multipliers at the same time, as they will generally affect different models.

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OP updated for V0.42

The Flyers come down a bit, and Ratlings are reduced immensely.

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Hi!

Great news on the ratlings!

I think that was the only unit left of concern o this list.

Primarch

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OP updated for V0.43.

I've added a few line entries to more closely match the most recent version of the Adeptus Militaris book, which really should be renamed back to "Adeptus Militaris" instead of "Imperial Guard with errata2" as it has more than just the Guard in it.

Similarly, the entry for Gorgon should be removed from the Vehicles section and added to Super Heavy, as it is one of those. I'm listing it there, with entries for having either 1 or 2 Gorgons per formation.

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Surely you mean Astra Militarum .

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Oops, yeah, my bad. I'll just go and report to the nearest reconditioning booth and activate the next clone now.

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I had a bit of free time today so entered the v043 point values into my "typical 3000pt IG army I might take in Gold"TM to see how it stacked up.

Overall the list now costs 3135 points, so there has been a modest increase in points over Gold, and tweak3 points were 2971.

Here is a rundown:

Card. Gold. Tweak3. V043.
Mech inf co. 650. 396. 540.
Assault inf co. 300. 326. 432.

Heavy inf ptn. 200. 53. 93.
Beastman ptn. 200. 63. 98.
Roughrider ptn. 200. 115. 147.
Sentinels. 150. 86. 110.
Hydras. 300. 147. 173.
Thunderbolts. 250. 497. 422.
Thunderbolts. 250. 497. 422.

Reaver Titan. 500. 791. 698.
Total. 3000. 2971. 3135.

The infantry have all come up a bit since tweak 3, which I think is good. The thunderbolts have gone down a little, but still well above their bargain Gold price of 250. Combined with the cheaper air defence like hydras, they are far from an auto include like they were.
The assault company is more expensive than in gold. I think this is ok, as they probably were under costed before. What do other people think?

Like Bissler alluded to above, I probably wouldn't take two thunderbolts squadrons now, and swap at least one out for something else, like more heavy infantry, or some marauders. But I understand the fliers are going to be one of the extreme unit types that is difficult to get right using the current rules.
700 points for a reaver that used to cost 500 is a bit of a shame, but overall I think the points in this army are more balanced than the Gold points.
What do other people think?

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Hi!

Good rundown!

Given the potential power of air elements I think their increased cost will keep them scarce enough so ass not to dominate the game.

I like were titan costs are now, since I think some (reavers and warhounds were too cheap for the utility.

Primarch

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Thanks for the sample army list. It is good to see these. Wow, Tweak3 was a long time ago.

In my opinion, it is also good to see that the formula values are producing total army values that are similar to what would be found under Gold. Sure, one could build a broken list where the cost is significantly higher or lower, but having a balanced list come out about the same (I consider +/- 10% to be about the same) is good.

Of course, your list is actually slightly broken, as you have not selected weapons for the Reaver. Thus for your 500 points you have a walking damage soak with no weapons. Well, it could still Close Combat things, but that is it.


As stated elsewhere, the main thing for V0.43 was revising Formation building to simplify it to make variable formations easier to construct. A side effect of that was that they got a little more expensive than under V0.42. The secondary V0.43 change was finding and fixing Weapon cost errors, which there were a lot of.

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