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Points formula values for Imperial Titan weapons

 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Imperial Titan weapons
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 3:18 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Well, technically the Quake Cannon just has "Damages Buildings". "Destroy Buildings" is a more powerful version with a higher value. But yes, it does help.


Whoops, my bad. This statement is incorrect. I was checking the lists again for another issue and noticed the Adeptus Mechanicus pdf's weapons summary actually does say "Destroys" rather than "Damages". I must have transcribed it incorrectly. This will increase the value of a QC to 512. This means that a FCC increases it's cost by +256, and a Command Head also adds +256.


Many weapons have up to three values. Base, additional cost with FCC, & additional cost with Command Head. I've put in the adjustments for FCC and CH as bonuses, as otherwise I'd have to list up to four final values. If you think that it would be easier to read, the final chart can have final costs rather than listing an additional cost for each one that has one.

I would have loved to put in the values here as a chart with columns, but this forum seems to have no way of doing that. Even the List functions are just single column, as far as I can tell. If anyone knows a way to do that, short of attaching a picture, please let me know.


Hi!

The forums do not allow for table formatting other than an attachment, but no worries, we can do that when the time to do a formal document arrives. :)

I am more and more convinced of the higher values on some of these weapons. If they are used too heavily then you know they are "too good". A quake cannon, as well as basilisks for example are overused.

They need to be very expensive.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Imperial Titan weapons
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 5:40 am 
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I've actually been having some second thoughts on how I'm calculating CC weapons. To date, I've been including a *0.1 modifier for having to be used against an adjacent opponent. I'm currently thinking that might not be necessary since the expectation with such a weapon is that it would only be used in CC. Also, since the majority of costs are going up as much as they are (not all, but most) CC weapons will still be inexpensive even without it. Not including that modifier would change the following to:
Chain Fist: 26
Laser Burner, old: 56
Laser Burner, new: 32
Power Fist: 16
Power Ram: 17

These values are now non-trivial, but still low compared to other options. Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Imperial Titan weapons
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 8:02 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I've actually been having some second thoughts on how I'm calculating CC weapons. To date, I've been including a *0.1 modifier for having to be used against an adjacent opponent. I'm currently thinking that might not be necessary since the expectation with such a weapon is that it would only be used in CC. Also, since the majority of costs are going up as much as they are (not all, but most) CC weapons will still be inexpensive even without it. Not including that modifier would change the following to:
Chain Fist: 26
Laser Burner, old: 56
Laser Burner, new: 32
Power Fist: 16
Power Ram: 17

These values are now non-trivial, but still low compared to other options. Thoughts?


Hi!

I'm good with thiese values on two accounts:

1. They are still markedly cheaper than any ranged weapon

2. I had revamped and upgraded several close combat weapons in our discussions of them, so these higher costs, reflect better their "upgraded status".

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Imperial Titan weapons
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:33 am 
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Seems I also neglected to take into account that Titan weapons are selected after army selection, and thus their price has to include the Morale adjustment as well. I did do this for all other Faction's Titans (I think, I'll have to double check). Thus all of them have changed a bit.

Corvus Weapon / Head are now just the Transport and other costs without including any troops. I'll look into lists for those in a bit.
________________________

_ Titan Weapons
Barrage Missile Launcher: 240
Carapace Landing Pad + Recon Land Speeder: 5+95
Carapace Multi-Lasers: 5
Cerberus Anti-Aircraft Gun: 180
Chain Fist: 35
Corvus Assault Pod: 15 +cost of Detachment (see below)
Devotional Bell: 70
Doomburner: 105
Fire Control Center: 0 and alters cost of all other weapons, see below
Gatling Blaster: 65
Harpoon Missile: 200
Hellstrike Cannon: 100
Inferno Gun: 30
Laser Blaster: 35
Laser Burner, old (1d6 hits): 80
Laser Burner, new (1 auto hit): 45
Melta-Cannon: 90
Multiple Rocket Launcher: 95
Plasma Blastgun restricted: 55
Plasma Blastgun, self-powered: 110
Plasma Cannon, restricted: 150
Plasma Cannon, self-powered: 300
Plasma Destructor, restricted: 155
Plasma Destructor, self-powered: 625
Power Fist: 20
Power Ram: 35
Quake Cannon: 360
Trident: 10
Turbo Laser Destructor: 100
Volcano Cannon: 280
Vortex Missile: 325
Vulcan Mega-Bolter: 35
Warp Missile: 120
Wrecker: 35
Close Combat Head: 10
Command Head: 90 and alters cost of all other weapons, see below
Corvus Assault Head: 10 +cost of Detachment (see below)
Custodian Head: 45
Deathstrike Cannon Head: 70
Weapon Head: 0

_Fire Control Center cost adjustments:
Barrage Missile Lanucher: +240
Carapace Multi-Lasers: +5
Cerberus AA Gun: +90
Doomburner: +100
Gatling Blaster: +35
Hellstrike Cannon: +50
Inferno Gun: +15
Laser Blaster: +15
Melta-Cannon: +90
Multiple Rocket Lanucher: +135
Plasma Blastgun, res: +55
Plasma Blastgun, self: +110
Plasma Cannon, res: +75
Plasma Cannon, self: +150
Plasma Destructor, restricted: +155
Plasma Destructor, self-powered: +625
Quake Cannon: +360
Trident: +10
Turbo Laser Destructor: +100
Volcano Cannon: +280
Vulcan Mega-Bolter: +15
Custodian Head: +20
Deathstrike Cannon Head: +70
Weapon Head: +5

_ Command Head adjusted costs:
Barrage Missile Launcher: +120
Doomburner: +50
Harpoon Missile: +100
Hellstrike Cannon: +50
Inferno Gun: +15
Gatling Blaster: +35
Laser Blaster: +15
Melta-Cannon: +45
Multiple Rocket Launcher: +65
Plasma Blastgun, res: +30
Plasma Blastgun, self: +55
Plasma Cannon, res: +75
Plasma Cannon, self: +150
Plasma Destructor, restricted: +80
Plasma Destructor, self-powered: +315
Quake Cannon: +180
Trident: +5
Turbo Laser Destructor: +50
Volcano Cannon: +140
Vortex Missile: +160
Vulcan Mega-Bolter: +15
Warp Missile: +60
Custodian Head: +20
Deathstrike Cannon Head: +35
Weapon Head: +5

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Imperial Titan weapons
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:48 pm 
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Hi!

Looks good. :)

I'm really liking the distinction on plasma weapons (self powered or not).

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Imperial Titan weapons
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:51 am 
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I've included the raw calculated value for any weapon with a 'Final' value of zero or below in parenthesis.

All Imperial Titan weapons are priced as if part of a Support Formation. In other words, the weapons themselves receive no discount when being bought for a Titan purchased as part of a Company or Special formation.
_ Titan Weapons basic cost: _ base _ dir _ tmplt _ rng _ CAF _ Final
Barrage Missile Launcher: ______ 240 _ 240 _ 120 _ 120 _ 240 _ 120
Carapace Landing Pad: ____________ 5 ___ 5 ___ 5 ___ 5 ___ 5 ___ 5
_ Recon Land Speeder: ___________ 25 __ 20 __ 25 __ 20 __ 30 __ 25
Carapace Multi-Lasers: ___________ 5 ___ 0 ___ 5 ___ 0 ___ 5 ___ 0 (1.26)
Cerberus AA Gun: _______________ 180 __ 45 _ 180 __ 45 _ 180 __ 45
Chain Fist, Warhound: ___________ 35 __ 25 __ 35 __ 25 _ 135 _ 120
Chain Fist, Reaver: _____________ 35 __ 25 __ 35 __ 25 _ 125 _ 110
Chain Fist, Warlord: ____________ 35 __ 25 __ 35 __ 25 _ 120 _ 105
Corvus Assault Pod +see below: __ 15 __ 15 __ 15 __ 15 __ 15 __ 15
Devotional Bell: ________________ 70 __ 70 __ 70 __ 70 __ 70 __ 70
Doomburner: ____________________ 100 __ 25 _ 100 __ 25 _ 100 __ 25
Fire Control Center: 0 and alters cost of all other weapons, see below
Gatling Blaster: ________________ 65 __ 15 __ 65 __ 15 __ 65 __ 15
Harpoon Missile: _______________ 200 __ 50 _ 200 __ 50 _ 200 __ 50
Hellstrike Cannon: _____________ 100 _ 100 __ 50 __ 50 _ 100 __ 50
Inferno Gun: ____________________ 30 __ 30 __ 15 __ 15 __ 30 __ 15
Laser Blaster: __________________ 35 __ 10 __ 35 __ 10 __ 35 __ 10
Laser Burner, old (1d6 hits): ___ 80 __ 20 __ 80 __ 20 __ 80 __ 20
Laser Burner, new (1 auto hit): _ 45 __ 10 __ 45 __ 10 __ 45 __ 10
Melta-Cannon: ___________________ 90 __ 20 __ 90 __ 20 __ 90 __ 20
Multiple Rocket Launcher: ______ 135 _ 135 __ 65 __ 65 _ 135 __ 65
Plasma Blastgun restricted: _____ 55 __ 15 __ 55 __ 15 __ 55 __ 15
Plasma Blastgun, self-powered: _ 110 __ 30 _ 110 __ 30 _ 110 __ 30
Plasma Cannon, restricted: _____ 150 __ 40 _ 150 __ 40 _ 150 __ 40
Plasma Cannon, self-powered: ___ 300 __ 75 _ 300 __ 75 _ 300 __ 75
Plasma Destructor, restricted: _ 155 __ 40 _ 155 __ 40 _ 155 __ 40
Plasma Destructor, self-power: _ 625 _ 155 _ 625 _ 155 _ 625 _ 155
Power Fist: _____________________ 20 ___ 5 __ 20 ___ 5 __ 20 ___ 5
Power Ram, Reaver: ______________ 35 __ 25 __ 35 __ 25 __ 85 __ 75
Power Ram, Warlord: _____________ 35 __ 25 __ 35 __ 25 __ 85 __ 75
Quake Cannon: __________________ 360 _ 360 _ 180 _ 180 _ 360 _ 180
Trident: ________________________ 10 ___ 0 __ 10 ___ 0 __ 10 ___ 0 (2.1)
Turbo Laser Destructor: ________ 100 __ 25 _ 100 __ 25 _ 100 __ 25
Volcano Cannon: ________________ 280 __ 70 _ 280 __ 70 _ 280 __ 70
Vortex Missile: ________________ 325 _ 325 _ 160 _ 160 _ 325 _ 160
Vulcan Mega-Bolter: _____________ 35 __ 10 __ 35 __ 10 __ 35 __ 10
Warp Missile: __________________ 120 __ 30 _ 120 __ 30 _ 120 __ 30
Wrecker: ________________________ 35 __ 10 __ 35 __ 10 __ 35 __ 10
Close Combat Head, Reaver: ______ 10 __ 10 __ 10 __ 10 __ 85 __ 85
Close Combat Head, Warlord: _____ 10 __ 10 __ 10 __ 10 __ 85 __ 85
Command Head +see below: ________ 90 __ 90 __ 90 __ 90 __ 90 __ 90
Corvus Assault Head +see below: __ 5 ___ 5 ___ 5 ___ 5 ___ 5 ___ 5
Custodian Head: _________________ 45 __ 45 __ 20 __ 20 __ 45 __ 20
Deathstrike Cannon Head: ________ 70 __ 70 __ 15 __ 15 __ 70 __ 15
Weapon Head: _____________________ 0 __ -5 ___ 0 __ -5 ___ 0 __ -5 (-4.2)

If the Titan is equipped with a Fire Control Center then replace the basic cost above with the following:
Barrage Missile Launcher: _ 485 _ 485 __ 240 _ 240
Carapace Multi-Lasers: _____ 10 ___ 0 ___ 10 ___ 0 (1.89)
Cerberus AA Gun: __________ 270 __ 65 __ 270 __ 65
Doomburner: _______________ 200 __ 50 __ 200 __ 50
Gatling Blaster: __________ 100 __ 25 __ 100 __ 25
Hellstrike Cannon: ________ 150 _ 150 ___ 75 __ 75
Inferno Gun: _______________ 45 __ 45 ___ 25 __ 25
Laser Blaster: _____________ 50 __ 15 ___ 50 __ 15
Melta-Cannon: _____________ 180 __ 45 __ 180 __ 45
Multiple Rocket Launcher: _ 270 _ 270 __ 135 _ 135
Plasma Blastgun, res: _____ 110 __ 30 __ 110 __ 30
Plasma Blastgun, self: ____ 225 __ 55 __ 225 __ 55
Plasma Cannon, res: _______ 225 __ 55 __ 225 __ 55
Plasma Cannon, self: ______ 455 _ 115 __ 455 _ 115
Plasma Destructor, res: ___ 315 __ 80 __ 315 __ 80
Plasma Destructor, self: _ 1255 _ 315 _ 1255 _ 315
Quake Cannon: _____________ 715 _ 715 __ 360 _ 360
Trident: ___________________ 15 ___ 5 ___ 15 ___ 5
Turbo Laser Destructor: ___ 200 __ 50 __ 200 __ 50
Volcano Cannon: ___________ 560 _ 140 __ 560 _ 140
Vulcan Mega-Bolter: ________ 50 __ 15 ___ 50 __ 15
Custodian Head: ____________ 65 __ 65 ___ 30 __ 30
Deathstrike Cannon Head: __ 135 _ 135 ___ 25 __ 25
Weapon Head: ________________ 5 __ -5 ____ 5 __ -5 (-3.5)


If a Titan is equipped with a Command Head then replace the basic cost above with this value:
Barrage Missile Launcher: _ 365 _ 365 _ 180 _ 180
Doomburner: _______________ 150 __ 40 _ 150 __ 40
Gatling Blaster: __________ 100 __ 25 _ 100 __ 25
Harpoon Missile: __________ 300 __ 75 _ 300 __ 75
Hellstrike Cannon: ________ 150 _ 150 __ 75 __ 75
Inferno Gun: _______________ 45 __ 45 __ 25 __ 25
Laser Blaster: _____________ 50 __ 15 __ 50 __ 15
Melta-Cannon: _____________ 135 __ 35 _ 135 __ 35
Multiple Rocket Launcher: _ 200 _ 200 _ 100 _ 100
Plasma Blastgun, res: ______ 85 __ 20 __ 85 __ 20
Plasma Blastgun, self: ____ 170 __ 40 _ 170 __ 40
Plasma Cannon, res: _______ 225 __ 55 _ 225 __ 55
Plasma Cannon, self: ______ 455 _ 115 _ 455 _ 115
Plasma Destructor, res: ___ 235 __ 60 _ 235 __ 60
Plasma Destructor, self: __ 940 _ 235 _ 940 _ 235
Quake Cannon: _____________ 540 _ 540 _ 270 _ 270
Trident: ___________________ 15 ___ 5 __ 15 ___ 5
Turbo Laser Destructor: ___ 150 __ 40 _ 150 __ 40
Volcano Cannon: ___________ 420 _ 105 _ 420 _ 105
Vortex Missile: ___________ 485 _ 485 _ 240 _ 240
Vulcan Mega-Bolter: ________ 50 __ 15 __ 50 __ 15
Warp Missile: _____________ 180 __ 45 _ 180 __ 45


If a Titan is Equipped with both the Command Head and Fire Control Center, then replace the basic value with this value:
Barrage Missile Launcher: _ 725 __ 725 __ 365 _ 365
Doomburner: _______________ 300 ___ 75 __ 300 __ 75
Gatling Blaster: __________ 150 ___ 40 __ 150 __ 40
Hellstrike Cannon: ________ 225 __ 225 __ 115 _ 115
Inferno Gun: _______________ 70 ___ 70 ___ 35 __ 35
Laser Blaster: _____________ 75 ___ 20 ___ 75 __ 20
Melta-Cannon: _____________ 270 ___ 65 __ 270 __ 65
Multiple Rocket Launcher: _ 405 __ 405 __ 200 _ 200
Plasma Blastgun, res: _____ 170 ___ 40 __ 170 __ 40
Plasma Blastgun, self: ____ 335 ___ 85 __ 335 __ 85
Plasma Cannon, res: _______ 340 ___ 85 __ 340 __ 85
Plasma Cannon, self: ______ 680 __ 170 __ 680 _ 170
Plasma Destructor, res: ___ 470 __ 120 __ 470 _ 120
Plasma Destructor, self: _ 1880 __ 470 _ 1880 _ 470
Quake Cannon: ____________ 1075 _ 1075 __ 540 _ 540
Trident: ___________________ 25 ____ 5 ___ 25 ___ 5
Turbo Laser Destructor: ___ 300 ___ 75 __ 300 __ 75
Volcano Cannon: ___________ 840 __ 210 __ 840 _ 210
Vulcan Mega-Bolter: ________ 75 ___ 20 ___ 75 __ 20

I skipped out on typing in the 'CAF' and 'Final' columns for the FCC, CH, & FCC+CH tables as those values would match those in the 'range' column.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Imperial Titan weapons
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:35 pm 
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Hi!

Cool! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Imperial Titan weapons
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:40 pm 
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I'm getting concerned about the CAF tweaks. The values for the Chain Fist, Power Ram, and Close Combat Head (the only Imperial Titan weapons that adjust CAF) seem excessively high. I may have to change to using the non-stacking value for the pinning class to compensate (IE use "1, 2, 3, 4, or 5" rather than "1, 3, 6, 10, or 15"), or possibly just remove that (and possibly the terrain value) entirely for the weapons themselves. The rationale for that is that those factors don't affect the weapons, but just the Titan itself. The problem with that rationale is that it could be extended to the move rate as well, thus removing all cost. Of course, the Titan is carrying the weapons, so it does affect them. So much for that rationale.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Imperial Titan weapons
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:16 am 
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Hi!

Whatever you think best Magnus. I giving you all the leeway you need for these formulas. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Imperial Titan weapons
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:48 am 
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As interesting as that is, it would still be good to get feedback here and there. Heck, getting feedback is the entire point to posting the values at each step, as you pointed out.

For example, in the 'Final' column, a Chain Fist is more expensive than a Volcano Cannon. With these costs, would you ever equip a Warlord with a Chain Fist instead of a Volcano Cannon? Or for that matter, a Chain Fist instead of a Laser Burner?

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Imperial Titan weapons
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:47 pm 
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Hi!

Then perhaps base close combat weapons on the basis of: chassis, CAF value and movement alone?

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Imperial Titan weapons
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:21 pm 
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Or just use some other factor to adjust titan combat weapons. Compared to other titan weapons you might (if you are lucky) get one use out of them in a game. Even stands/vehicles can make use of their CAF a couple of times a game.
Basically titan close combat is significantly less relavent than other combat.


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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Imperial Titan weapons
PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:03 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
Or just use some other factor to adjust titan combat weapons. Compared to other titan weapons you might (if you are lucky) get one use out of them in a game. Even stands/vehicles can make use of their CAF a couple of times a game.
Basically titan close combat is significantly less relevant than other combat.


That is an interesting perspective. Do other people agree with this?

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Imperial Titan weapons
PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:41 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Mattman wrote:
Or just use some other factor to adjust titan combat weapons. Compared to other titan weapons you might (if you are lucky) get one use out of them in a game. Even stands/vehicles can make use of their CAF a couple of times a game.
Basically titan close combat is significantly less relevant than other combat.


That is an interesting perspective. Do other people agree with this?


Hi!

I think that is pretty insightful. A weapons use is more than just the stats, but also the opportunity cost. I guess some variable on its low potential use could modify the final determined cost.

This "opportunity modifier" could be based on the likelihood of a titan using them at least once per game. I would think the larger the titan the less probable it would be due to movement restrictions.

I think Mattman's suggestion is sound.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Imperial Titan weapons
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:16 pm 
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Didn't we have a similar conversation on titan CC weapons a while a go. Don't have time to go digging, but I think we were looking at having the basic CC weapons (and maybe others) cost 0 points due to the fact that you would rarely use them in a game.

The other thing is that to get your titan into combat you have to charge which means you have to give up a whole round of shooting with your other weapons, just to get a chance to kill something in close combat.
That is assuming you have a target. If your opponent doesn't have a titan, then the CC weapon is next to worthless (you might be able to knock down a building, but I think I have only see a titan do that in a couple of games in the dozens I have played over the years). Your opponents titan might be at the other end of the battlefield, so again, not much chance of reaching him over the course of the game (and even less so if you are a gargant!)
But, this might change in Platinum.
If we introduce the Plasma Counter rule to titans, then you can have a titan which charges and shoots and might be able to get into combat. Also if we allow a titan to engage multiple smaller units then the CAF boost of those weapons might be tempting to give it more of a chance to win.
All in all, what ever the rules end up, I don't think CC weapons should cost much if anything point wise. I know we are trying to ensure that everything has a balanced point cost, but maybe these are just anomalies that will have to calculated a different way. Maybe all of the titan weapons need to be calculated in a different way.

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