Updated for current version of the formula (V0.46):
_______________

The Corvus Assault Pod & Head essentially add a Support Detachment of Terminators (without Land Raiders) to the Titan without using a Formation slot. The default entry in the pdf says Terminators, but it seems logical to me to allow the selection of Close Assault Terminators instead if desired. The points values below give two options, lists for those options are yet to be generated.

The Fire Control Center adjusts the 'To Hit' of the other weapons on the Titan. This modifies the costs of the other weapons as noted rather than just having a fixed value, as the effectiveness of this really depends on the other weapons chosen.

Plasma Weapons. The entry for 'restricted' uses all normal NE Gold limitations on usage. The 'self-powered' entry does not have those restrictions.

The Command Head gives the Titan the Command ability. The base cost represents the adjustment to the Titan's move value (do not adjust the cost of that as well). In addition, the value of all attached weapons is adjusted to the listed value.
________________________________


__ Titan Weapons: ____________ V0.46 _ vs 0.43 _ vs Gold
Barrage Missile Launcher _______ 423 ____ 0 ____ +323
-- with Command Head ___________ 634 ____ 0 ____ +534
-- with Fire Control Center ____ 634 ____ 0 ____ +534
-- both Command Head & FCC _____ 951 ____ 0 ____ +851
Carapace Landing Pad: ____________ 5 ____ 0 _____ -45 [Transport 1: Cav (Recon Land Speeder)]
_ Recon Land Speeder: __________ 115 ___ -3 _____ +75
Carapace Multi-Lasers: ___________ 3 ____ 0 ______ -7
-- with Fire Control Center ______ 4 ____ 0 ______ -6
Cerberus AA Gun: _______________ 103 ____ 0 _____ +63
-- with Fire Control Center ____ 155 ____ 0 ____ +115
Chain Fist, Warhound: ___________ 52 __ +28 _____ +27
Chain Fist, Reaver: _____________ 52 __ +28 _____ +27
Chain Fist, Warlord: ____________ 52 __ +28 _____ +27
Corvus Assault Pod, default: _____ 8 ____ 0 _________ [Transport 4: B1/1]
_ 4 stands Terminators _________ 168 __ -26 _____ +26 _ [M1, BP2, VP2]
Corvus Assault Pod, Detachment: _ 12 ____ 0 _________ [Transport Detachment: I1/1,B1/2]
_ 4 stands Terminators _________ 168 __ -26 _____ +30 _ [M1, BP2, VP2]
_ 4 stands ClsAsslt Terminators_ 131 __ -35 ______ -7 _ [M1, BP2, VP2]
_ 6 stands Assault Marines _____ 119 __ -31 _____ -19 _ [M1, BP3, VP2]
_ 6 stands Assault (AdMech) _____ 69 ___ -9 _____ -81 _ [M3, BP3, VP1]
_ 10 stands Assault (AdMech) ___ 116 __ -14 _____ -22 _ [M3, BP5, VP1]
Devotional Bell: ________________ 81 ____ 0 _____ +31
Doomburner _____________________ 130 ____ 0 _ 261 ___ 391 / +72 _ +109 _ +145 _ +217 / +65
-- with Command Head ___________ 196 ____ 0 ____ +131
-- with Fire Control Center ____ 196 ____ 0 ____ +131
-- with both ___________________ 293 ____ 0 ____ +228
Fire Control Center: _____________ 0 ____ 0 _____ -75 ___ alters cost of all other weapons
Gatling Blaster: ________________ 39 ____ 0 _____ -11
-- with Command Head ____________ 58 ____ 0 ______ +8
-- with Fire Control Center _____ 58 ____ 0 ______ +8
-- with both ____________________ 87 __ +27 _____ +37
Harpoon Missile: _______________ 232 ____ 0 ____ +157
-- with Command Head ___________ 348 ____ 0 ____ +272
Hellstrike Cannon _______________ 59 ____ 0 ______ +9
-- with Command Head ____________ 88 ____ 0 _____ +38
-- with Fire Control Center _____ 78 ____ 0 _____ +28
-- with both ___________________ 117 ____ 0 _____ +67
Inferno Gun ______________________ 8 __ -29 _____ -42
-- with Command Head ____________ 11 __ -44 _____ -39
-- with Fire Control Center _____ 10 __ -39 _____ -40
-- with both ____________________ 15 __ -59 _____ -35
Laser Blaster: __________________ 19 ____ 0 _____ -31
-- with Command Head ____________ 29 ____ 0 _____ -21
-- with Fire Control Center _____ 29 ____ 0 _____ -21
-- with both ____________________ 43 ____ 0 ______ -7
Laser Burner, old (1d6 hits): ___ 45 ____ 0 _____ +35
Laser Burner, new (1 auto hit): _ 26 ____ 0 _____ +26
Melta-Cannon: ___________________ 52 ____ 0 ______ +2
-- with Command Head ____________ 77 ____ 0 _____ +27
-- with Fire Control Center _____ 77 ____ 0 _____ +27
-- with both ___________________ 116 ____ 0 _____ +66
Multiple Rocket Launcher ________ 91 ____ 0 _____ +16
-- with Command Head ___________ 137 ____ 0 _____ +62
-- with Fire Control Center ____ 130 ____ 0 _____ +55
-- with both ___________________ 196 ____ 0 ____ +121
Plasma Blastgun restricted: _____ 32 ____ 0 _____ -33
-- with Command Head ____________ 48 ____ 0 _____ -17
-- with Fire Control Center _____ 48 ____ 0 _____ -17
-- with both ____________________ 72 ____ 0 ______ +7
Plasma Blastgun, self-powered: __ 64 ____ 0 ______ -1
-- with Command Head ____________ 97 ____ 0 _____ +32
-- with Fire Control Center _____ 97 ____ 0 _____ +32
-- with both ___________________ 145 ____ 0 _____ +80
Plasma Cannon, restricted: ______ 87 ____ 0 _____ -13
-- with Command Head ___________ 130 ____ 0 _____ +30
-- with Fire Control Center ____ 116 ____ 0 _____ +16
-- with both ___________________ 174 ____ 0 _____ +74
Plasma Cannon, self-powered: ___ 174 ____ 0 _____ +74
-- with Command Head ___________ 261 ____ 0 ____ +161
-- with Fire Control Center ____ 232 ____ 0 ____ +132
-- with both ___________________ 348 ____ 0 ____ +248
Plasma Destructor, restricted: __ 90 ____ 0 _____ -35
-- with Command Head ___________ 135 ____ 0 _____ +10
-- with Fire Control Center ____ 135 ____ 0 _____ +10
-- with both ___________________ 203 ____ 0 _____ +78
Plasma Destructor, self-power: _ 361 ____ 0 ____ +236
-- with Command Head ___________ 541 ____ 0 ____ +416
-- with Fire Control Center ____ 541 ____ 0 ____ +416
-- with both ___________________ 811 ____ 0 ____ +686
Power Fist: _____________________ 43 ____ 0 _____ +28
Power Ram, Reaver: ______________ 62 ___ +8 _____ +37
Power Ram, Warlord: _____________ 62 __ +12 _____ +37
Quake Cannon ___________________ 185 ____ 0 ____ +100
-- with Command Head ___________ 278 ____ 0 ____ +193
-- with Fire Control Center ____ 278 ____ 0 ____ +193
-- with both ___________________ 417 ____ 0 ____ +332
Trident: ________________________ 46 ____ 0 ______ -4
-- with Command Head ____________ 70 ____ 0 _____ +20
-- with Fire Control Center _____ 70 ____ 0 _____ +20
-- with both ___________________ 104 ____ 0 _____ +54
Turbo Laser Destructor: _________ 58 ____ 0 _____ -17
-- with Command Head ____________ 87 ____ 0 _____ +12
-- with Fire Control Center _____ 87 ____ 0 _____ +12
-- with both ___________________ 130 ____ 0 _____ +55
Volcano Cannon: ________________ 161 ____ 0 _____ +61
-- with Command Head ___________ 242 ____ 0 ____ +142
-- with Fire Control Center ____ 242 ____ 0 ____ +142
-- with both ___________________ 362 ____ 0 ____ +262
Vortex Missile _________________ 148 ____ 0 ______ -2
-- with Command Head ___________ 223 ____ 0 _____ +73
Vulcan Mega-Bolter: _____________ 19 ____ 0 _____ -31
-- with Command Head ____________ 29 ____ 0 _____ -21
-- with Fire Control Center _____ 26 ____ 0 _____ -24
-- with both ____________________ 39 ____ 0 _____ -11
Warp Missile: __________________ 247 ____ 0 ____ +122
-- with Command Head ___________ 371 ____ 0 ____ +246
-- with Fire Control Center ____ 309 ____ 0 ____ +184
-- with both ___________________ 464 ____ 0 ____ +339
Wrecker: ________________________ 55 ____ 0 _____ +30
Close Combat Head, Reaver: ______ 22 __ +24 ______ +7
Close Combat Head, Warlord: _____ 23 __ +25 ______ +8
Command Head +see column ________ 37 ___ +7 ______ +2 & alters costs of all other weapons
Corvus Assault Head, default: ____ 7 ____ 0 ____ -143
_ 4 stands Terminators _________ 168 __ -26 _____ +25 _ [M1, BP2, VP2]
Corvus Assault Head, Detachment: _10 ____ 0 ____ -140
_ 4 stands Terminators _________ 168 __ -26 _____ +28 _ [M1, BP2, VP2]
_ 4 stands ClsAsslt Terminators_ 131 __ -35 ______ -9 _ [M1, BP2, VP2]
_ 6 stands Assault Marines _____ 119 __ -31 _____ -21 _ [M1, BP3, VP2]
_ 6 stands Assault (AdMech) _____ 69 ___ -9 _____ -83 _ [M3, BP3, VP1]
_ 10 stands Assault (AdMech) ___ 116 __ -14 _____ -24 _ [M3, BP5, VP1]
Custodian Head: _________________ 51 ____ 0 ______ +1
-- with Fire Control Center _____ 70 ____ 0 _____ +20
Deathstrike Cannon Head _________ 69 ____ 0 ______ -6
-- with Fire Control Center ____ 103 ____ 0 _____ +28
Weapon Head: _____________________ 2 ____ 0 _____ -23
-- with Fire Control Center ______ 3 ____ 0 _____ -22

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Hi!

I like the massive difference between self powered and restricted plasma weapon. VERY appropriate. Introduces a good balance and decision making when deciding between the two.

I also like that the deathstrike cannon head is expensive. It was too good of a weapon in a head spot no less.

Why did the quake cannon rate so high? Mind you, I think it should be high (too cheap before), but it landed higher than I thought.

Primarch

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Primarch


The Primarchload
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Quake Cannon: 100cm, 8 BP, 3+, -3, no indirect, Damages Buildings

Base value for a weapon is 4.
Since this is a Barrage, we multiply the base by the BP: *8
Range of 100cm: *2
To hit of 3+: *2
TSM -3: *4
no indirect fire: *0.5
Damages Buildings: *1.5

The formula does it all together, but to demonstrate:
4*8=32
32*2=64
64*2=128
128*4=512
512*0.5=256
256*1.5=384

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I must admit that would put me off using Quake Cannon over Volcano Cannon... VCs were always my preferred choice of the two, this just cements my thoughts on the matter.

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Hi!

Destroys buildings.The reason I personally take the quake over the volcano. The ability to reduce a building to ash is tactically powerful.

Primarch

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Primarch


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Well, technically the Quake Cannon just has "Damages Buildings". "Destroy Buildings" is a more powerful version with a higher value. But yes, it does help.

Actually, this exact issue (VC vs QC) is a good one to discuss, as the formula may still need tweaking here and there. A lot of Barrage (and other Template) weapons are coming out as very expensive. This might be warranted, but the system might be overcharging for Template weapons. I'm just not sure. What do you guys think?

On the other hand, a lot of weapons are coming out as being less, or far less, expensive than they were before. As an example, look at the Weapon Head. The cost of the weapon provided entirely offsets the cost reduction from losing a point from the armor Save. Similarly, the majority of the CC weapons came out as single-digit (ignoring the decimal) values. There was a discussion a while back about reducing the costs of CC weapons and the formula bears out that that is warranted, for most of them anyway.

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Whoops, I keep forgetting to ask.

What do people think about the issues I mentioned about the Fire Control Center, Corvus Assault Pod, & Head?

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Hi!

I'm inclined to keep the higher values. Templates are so useful, in a wide variety of situations. Some ignore cover, some destroy buildings, some have other effects. All in all their versatility and capacity for hit multiple targets should have a high premium.

When I designed my Heresy Game, I did the same thing and placed a high value on template weapons.

As for the head variants, I am okay with the lower cost. Given that the reactor is no longer in the front template, the head is now the most commonly sought after target. Sacrificing armor for a weapon, particularly in this now high yield spot, is now a trade-off worth thinking about. It is balanced by the lower cost.

I also like that close combat weapons are very cheap. Perhaps not free, but they don't need to be free in the new points system, just cheaper, which they are.

Primarch

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Primarch


The Primarchload
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Hi!

I am in total agreement that the terminators from the corvus head could be assault as well. In fact I think that those should be the DEFAULT option with additional terminator options resulting in a higher cost. Thoughts?

I agree a BP and morale value, perhaps even a VP value should be attached to them.

As far as the fire control center, I agree it should modify the cost of other weapons taken and perhaps have no cost "itself". Something along the lines of "+75 points to all mounted weapons" or some such would be fine. In other words the fire control itself has no cost, but it increases the cost of all other weapons.

Would assigning a multiplier be easier than a flat cost? Either would be the same, depends on which people think easier.

Primarch

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FCC:
I actually included a list of what the adjustments would be by weapon (for weapons that require a to hit roll) in the list above. I determined that additional cost by adjusting the 'to hit' modifier in each weapon's formula, and noting the difference. This list is under: "_Fire Control Center cost adjustments:"

Having a flat adjustment would be identical to having a flat cost for the FCC, and thus not really representative of the effect on each specific weapon. Same thing with the Command Head.

Corvus:
Perhaps Assault should be the default option. That would make sense as that is what they are generally used for (when in Pod or Head), is assaulting a building or stronghold. They are also slightly cheaper. As to giving them VP, that is already covered by their cost adding to the VP given by the Titan itself. While we could say that they have their own VP, we would then have to say that the cost of that weapon does not add to the Titan itself, and that opens a can of worms that we probably don't want to deal with. On the other hand, perhaps we do.

Possible redefinition of Corvus Pod & Head: Perhaps instead of specifically carrying Terminators of some flavor, we redefine the Corvus' as having 8 slots of Transport (Infantry only). The Corvus P/H itself would then be really cheap, being just the cost of the Transport slots, with additional cost based on the troops purchased to be placed inside. The troops list should probably be customized by the Faction the Titan is attached to. I say 8 slots as it would have a note that Terminators (and possibly Jump Pack troops) count as two slots each. Using this model, the troops placed inside would be their own formation, with their own BP and VP. While the cost of the Corvus P/H itself would add to the Titan's VP, the cost of the troops would not.

The above thought reminds me that I forgot to add the cost of Transport to the Corvus entries above. I'll fix that in a bit.

Templates:
Agreed. They may as well have these values for the time being, at least until they can get some play testing to see if they are reasonable.

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Hi!
FCC: So basically titan weapons have a split value, with FCC and without. Correct? Of course it only applies to weapons that can benefit from it (usually not close combat weapons).

Corvus: I like the idea of defining the corvus head/pod as having transport slots and letting formation be more variable. Make it very useful and flavorful as well.

I agree to leave the VP to the titan cost, just assign BP and morale.

Templates: We'll test them out for sure, the game could use a little "less" barrage weapons as of Gold I tend to think they are too cheap for the effectiveness.

Primarch

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Whoops, my bad. This statement is incorrect. I was checking the lists again for another issue and noticed the Adeptus Mechanicus pdf's weapons summary actually does say "Destroys" rather than "Damages". I must have transcribed it incorrectly. This will increase the value of a QC to 512. This means that a FCC increases it's cost by +256, and a Command Head also adds +256.


Many weapons have up to three values. Base, additional cost with FCC, & additional cost with Command Head. I've put in the adjustments for FCC and CH as bonuses, as otherwise I'd have to list up to four final values. If you think that it would be easier to read, the final chart can have final costs rather than listing an additional cost for each one that has one.

I would have loved to put in the values here as a chart with columns, but this forum seems to have no way of doing that. Even the List functions are just single column, as far as I can tell. If anyone knows a way to do that, short of attaching a picture, please let me know.

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It's a good point you make about the Quake Cannon. Indeed, I must be suffering from amnesia because both myself and my opponent have been careful of late not to leave troops in buildings because of Quake Cannon and Doomsday Cannon on Praetorians.

I shudder to think how much buying fortresses for the Squats (and to a lesser degree IG) is going to cost.

But yes, in principle, barrages, particularly destroys buildings barrages are incredibly powerful.

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I also agree with everything discussed about the other weapons, we were saying a few weeks back that CC weapons should be free! the system here proves that. This might encourage players to try out the CC weapons again...

And it's also a great point that Primarch makes about the dilemma of reducing armour on the head now that the reactor has been removed from the front of Titans. I wouldn't do it at all now, no matter what the cost is for a head weapon.

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Hi!

Its a definite trade off, extra firepower lower head armor. It's a critical choice now, where before it was trivial.

These are the things that make a game better.

Primarch

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