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Gold Summary for Titan Legions

 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:02 am 
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6 will probably be fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:56 pm 
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Dwarf Supreme wrote:
6 will probably be fine.


Hi!

We'll go with 6 then. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:07 am 
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Hi!

I have updated the summary for gold on the first post.

I added a flat elevated cost for close combat weapons on lighter titans like warhounds and reavers. Only warlords get CC weapons for free. The cost of one and two CC weapons for lighter titans is significantly higher.

Heads are free for warlords and a flat cost for reavers. They are not permitted in warhounds.

A statement as to "free-form" weapon mounts will be included.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:56 am 
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If the Gatling Blaster's number of shots is increased, it's cost should also be increased. Since number of shots is being increased by +50%, cost should probably be increased by +50% as well, thus new cost of 90. Of course, 90 is clearly too high. Perhaps just a +25% increase for a new cost of 75.

As to cost of CC weapons, free for Warlord (and similar Battle class Titans) would probably be fine with Reaver costing at the current values and Warhound being double current values.

According to the Adeptus Mechanicus pdf, the only special Heads a Reaver can use is a Weapon Head or a Close Combat Head. I really don't think we should open up the Deathstrike, Command, Corvus, and Custodian Heads to Reaver Titans, and I also think that these four should not be free for a Warlord as they significantly change it's abilities. Reduce the cost a bit perhaps, but not free. Perhaps: Deathstrike: 60, Command: 20, Corvus: 130, Custodian: 35.

Also, the asterisked notes after the weapons chart on page 18 should probably be right-justified (in relation to the second column of the chart, with the CC, AA, & Special weapons) so as to move them away from the background image. Where they are currently they are almost entirely unreadable.

These last ones are minor quibbles, but it could make the chart a bit easier to read.

I would prefer if the order of the abbreviations that designate which type of Titan (W for Warlord, R for Reaver, D for Warhound) can use each weapon were placed in either an ascending or a descending order based on class. To put that another way, the current order is Reaver, Warhound, Warlord; or medium, small, large. I would prefer either small, medium, large; or large, medium, small.

Similarly, it kind of bothers me using W for Warlord as both it and the Warhound start with W and it bothers me using D for Warhound as both it and the Warlord end with D. Somewhat confusing. Perhaps use L for Warlord and H for Warhound, as these letters are unique to those classes of Titan (looking only at Imperial Titans, of course). R for Reaver is fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:17 am 
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Hi!

The problem with the gatling cannon is that is not sufficiently differentiated from the turbo laser and other similar weapons. They are better for the cost than the gatling cannon. This can be addressed by either lowering its cost or giving it more ability for the cost.

Note this is just for gold. Your formulas for platinum (or if people use them for gold) don't need this fix. This is purely for those whom play gold with the old points scheme.

The complaint for CC weapons was mostly for warhounds, but in my experience it applies to reavers as well. They are faster and cheaper and thus the effects of close combat weaponry on them is significantly magnified. Thus their cost has to be higher. I would say significantly so, otherwise they will be the better option than a warlord, which should be default.

They don't necessarily have to be the costs I listed (they are pulled out of the air), but some hefty cost should be levied on reavers and warhounds. Otherwise the problem that needs to be rectified won't be.

Of course, given platinum and your formula I am not particularly invested in the Gold points scheme anymore, but I feel I must address the needs of those whom still favor it.

I agree on the heads and the restrictions. Also the formatting suggestions sound good to. I will try to implement them.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:49 am 
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As to the Gatling Blaster, reducing the cost would probably be better IMHO than giving more shots. Also, changing it's number of shots would change it's cost in the Points System for Gold, as those costs reflect each weapons stats. If the stats are changed, the cost system's cost must change. Changing the cost for Gold would have no effect on the formula's value, however.

Not significantly differentiated. I disagree. By "similar weapons" I presume you mean ones with range of 75cm. Thus we have:
. Weapon . . . Cost . Shots . Hit . TSM . Special
Doomburner. . . . 65 . . 1 . . 3+ . . -3 . Ignores Cover, Damages Buildings, Penetrating +1
Gatling Blaster . 60 . . 4 . . 5+ . . -1 . na
Plasma Cannon. . 100 . . 6 . . 4+ . . -3 . may not fire other weapons
Turbo-Laser . . . 75 . . 2 . . 3+ . . -2 . na


Of these, the Gatling is already the lowest cost. From these, I'd think that the Doomburner is probably under-costed before I thought that the Gatling was over. Still, perhaps reducing it to 50 might be in order. If you mean something other than Range by "similar weapons" please specify.

For CC:
You said: "They don't necessarily have to be the costs I listed (they are pulled out of the air) ..." This is confusing since your post contains no actual numbers. There should, IMHO, be some connection to the existing values, as some of the CC weapons are better than others. Thus my suggestion. If you want to discuss the numbers, please actually post numbers.

I understand the concern with the CC weapons for Warhounds, as that has been extensively discussed, but applying to Reavers has not been discussed, as far as I can recall. I'm not sure I agree with the concerns, but I recognize that enough people do to realize that something must be done. As banning them from Warhounds entirely is something I cannot agree with, having them cost more is a reasonable alternative. I can accept them having a cost for Reavers but not Warlords, but the cost for a Reaver should not as high as for a Warhound.

As I have not seen your numbers, if normal Gold cost for Reaver and double that for Warhound is not enough, perhaps double normal Gold cost for Reaver and triple for Warhound? Even that seems a bit excessive to me, as the cost of a weapon is only dependent on the effectiveness of the weapon itself. Making CC weapons cost more based on the Movement rate of the Titan, suggests that the cost of a model's CAF should be adjusted by it's Move value. Hmm, that just might sort out a couple of odd issues with a few models' costs. I'll have to look into that. It would likely sort this issue too. I'll have to juggle some formulae and get back to you on that.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:16 am 
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Hi!

Lowering the cost sounds simpler, so lets do that. 50 points for the gatling cannon then.

I also like the X2 for reavers and x3 for warhounds idea. May not be the best thing. But it will solve the reaver/warhounds with double CC weapons issue.

I would not get to involved with cost analysis for gold. GW stock pricing and the net epic stuff that evolved from it are pretty flawed, so an approximation solution is good enough. The multipliers suggested are good enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:39 am 
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Oh? Ah, right, sorry, I neglected to specify in my final idea there that I was thinking about the Points Cost Formula. At this time, my idea is to replace the fixed base cost of 4 per point of CAF with the sum of Unit Type value and Move rate value. For example, an Infantry model with Move 10cm would now have a cost of 6 (Unit Type: 3 times Move value: 2) per point of CAF, while a Vehicle with Move of 10cm would have a base of 4. This would show that the faster a model moves, the easier it moves through terrain, and the higher it's Pinning class is, the more valuable each point of CAF is.

This will also affect the cost of any Titan weapon that affects CAF, and thus this issue will be represented in the Points Cost Formula as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:16 pm 
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primarch wrote:
Lowering the cost sounds simpler, so lets do that. 50 points for the gatling cannon then.

I'm fine with lowering its cost instead.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:43 pm 
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Dwarf Supreme wrote:
primarch wrote:
Lowering the cost sounds simpler, so lets do that. 50 points for the gatling cannon then.

I'm fine with lowering its cost instead.


Hi!

Probably for the best since people remember the stats, easier to lower the price.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:47 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Oh? Ah, right, sorry, I neglected to specify in my final idea there that I was thinking about the Points Cost Formula. At this time, my idea is to replace the fixed base cost of 4 per point of CAF with the sum of Unit Type value and Move rate value. For example, an Infantry model with Move 10cm would now have a cost of 6 (Unit Type: 3 times Move value: 2) per point of CAF, while a Vehicle with Move of 10cm would have a base of 4. This would show that the faster a model moves, the easier it moves through terrain, and the higher it's Pinning class is, the more valuable each point of CAF is.

This will also affect the cost of any Titan weapon that affects CAF, and thus this issue will be represented in the Points Cost Formula as well.


Hi!

Totally agree on linking CC effectiveness to movement. Since the two work in synergy.

We'll keep all that good stuff for platinum though. ;)

Besides, Gold user are more than welcome to use the platinum costs if they want to. :)

Primarch

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