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Gold Summary for Titan Legions

 Post subject: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:30 pm 
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Hi!

Summary

1. Frontal template for Imperial/chaos titans no longer have the reactor location. Replaced with "leg", save 2+.

2. Cerebus AA upgrade to:

Revised cerberus AA Gun:
- Who Can use it: Reaver, Warlord / Cost 100 / Location: carapace
- Stats: Range:100cm / Attack Dices: 4 / To-Hit: 5+ / TSM: -1 / Notes: Always on First Fire

3. Plasma weapons will come it two types Those with their own generator (higher cost, but no restrictions) and linked to the titans hull reactor (original version, lower price).

Cost for plasma weapons with thier own reactor
Plasma cannon - 150 points
Plasma destructor 225 points

Cost for plasma weapons linked to titans reactor.
Plasma Cannon - 100 points
Plasma destructor -125

4. Weapons cost revisions

Close combat weapons cost depends on the hull (size) or the titan:

Warlord: free
Reaver: x2 the listed cost
Warhound: x3 the listed cost

Changes in descriptions to close combat weapons to make them all equally viable:

a.Chain fist- no change, perhaps the most used one.
b.Power fist/claw- add the ability to re-roll on or both dice, second roll is final. This makes it help to win the combat. No change in other abilities.
c.Laser burner- The laser burner fires as its opponent closes for close combat. It unerringly strikes its target (within the shields, so they offer no protection). The hit scatters normally and once a location is determined roll immediately on the damage table (no modifiers).
d. Power ram- add +2 to CAF to simulate the headlong charge with the ram. All else remains the same.
e. wrecker- unchanged.

Variant heads are free on warlords except those listed below.

Doomburner 75
Gatling blaster 75
Laser blaster 50
Melta cannon 50
Quake cannon 100
Turbo laser destructor 75
Vulcan megabolter 50
Volcano cannon 100
Inferno gun 50
Deathstrike cannon 75
Hellstrike cannon 50
Rocket launcher 75
Barrage missile 100
Harpoon missile 75
Vortex 150
Warp missile 125
Cerebus AA/multilasers 100 (with recommended upgraded stats and AA ability)
Landing pad 50
Corvus pod 150
Corvus head 100
Devotional Bell 50
Fire control 75
Trident 50

5. Entry for Inquisitor is missing.

6. The gatling cannon cost is reduced to 50 points.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:30 pm 
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I find it interesting that the only Titans affected by removing the Front Reactor location are Warlord variants.

I'm fairly certain that someone pointed out that the Cerberus should have the "AA" ability, and since AA includes 'always fires on First Fire', that can be left off of the SA box.

I'm a little concerned about removing the restrictions on Plasma weapons. Wasn't that supposed to be just within the alternate Plasma system? I suppose the costs increasing might be adequate to cover that. Have they been play-tested at those point costs?

It might be better to say: "All heads free, except as noted below", as the Deathstrike Cannon is also a Head upgrade.

Also, just 50 points for gaining a detachment of Terminators seems a little low. Admittedly, the way they can be used is a bit limited (just against another Titan, or presumably Praetorian) but 50 is just 5 over the cost of one Terminator unit (45). Perhaps 100?

The list of Titan weapon costs would be easier to use if it were either alphabetized or arranged by price. If the latter, then each cost level should be alphabetized.

Up above in point 2 you say that the Cerberus costs 100, but in the list it is 50. Which is correct?

Something not mentioned is that the page references in the table of contents need to be fixed, as many of them are incorrect.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:18 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I find it interesting that the only Titans affected by removing the Front Reactor location are Warlord variants.

I'm fairly certain that someone pointed out that the Cerberus should have the "AA" ability, and since AA includes 'always fires on First Fire', that can be left off of the SA box.

I'm a little concerned about removing the restrictions on Plasma weapons. Wasn't that supposed to be just within the alternate Plasma system? I suppose the costs increasing might be adequate to cover that. Have they been play-tested at those point costs?

It might be better to say: "All heads free, except as noted below", as the Deathstrike Cannon is also a Head upgrade.

Also, just 50 points for gaining a detachment of Terminators seems a little low. Admittedly, the way they can be used is a bit limited (just against another Titan, or presumably Praetorian) but 50 is just 5 over the cost of one Terminator unit (45). Perhaps 100?

The list of Titan weapon costs would be easier to use if it were either alphabetized or arranged by price. If the latter, then each cost level should be alphabetized.

Up above in point 2 you say that the Cerberus costs 100, but in the list it is 50. Which is correct?

Something not mentioned is that the page references in the table of contents need to be fixed, as many of them are incorrect.


Hi!

Even stranger is why games workshop gave only warlords a front reactor, since neither reavers or warhounds have them. ;)

Corrected the points values and the head values.

I'm only posting mainly game balance issues. I already know that actually editing and formating is all on me. It's the real heavy lift since the summary changes aren't that much work.

As for the plasma weapons, everyone whom doesn't want to deal with complex titan plasma generation rules wanted these changes. As they currently stand they are not used, the restriction being the main culprit referred by those whom voiced an opinion.

Those rules were another questionable GW inclusion, since things didn't work that way under AT, where price and hard points use were the arbiters of "effectiveness". So I basically "retrofitted" them back to that paradigm,mainly on the base of cost.

The points costs are debatable and amendable to tweaking. Only time and feedback will settle that one.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:58 am 
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Admittedly it's been a while, so my memory could be off, but I'm fairly certain that I said that I feel that the heavier Plasma weapons work fine as they are, and I'm reasonably certain there was one other person who agreed with me, even outside the Plasma allocation rules. I'll have to check on that later, but I'm certain that your statement that "everyone wanted it that way" is incorrect. That said, if the majority of people want it that way, then that's the way it should be.

Actually 200 may be about right for a cost for a no-restriction Plasma Destructor. I say that because in the Points system a Plasma Destructor (with no restrictions) is just a bit above twice the cost of a Volcano Cannon.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:21 am 
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Hi!

I read the thread in this section again and as far as I can see only you disagreed with the plasma restriction removal. I think what you may remember is the discussion on fire control centers (same thread) which they did agree with you (it was about reassigning the fire control to carapace hard point instead of weapon hard points), so it was dropped.

Of course we talked a lot on titan weapons in several other threads (probably the titan plasma generation rules), but I didn't review those.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:03 am 
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If you wanted to keep a little of the plasma weapon restrictions then the only thing I would keep would be a version of the "can not move" on the destructor (since you could argue that movement is really the only other power hog), maybe "only can fire on First Fire orders". But the increase in points should keep them from dominating a game, sure you can load up several on a Warlord, but do you really want a titan costing 1000+ points.


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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:52 pm 
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Ah, right, I guess I was confusing the two discussions. That makes sense then. Since I'm outnumbered on that point, I'll have to concede it.

If the restrictions are dropped, they may as well all be dropped. It could be explained that there are no restrictions because the Plasma weapons now contain their own miniature reactor and thus are not dependent on the Titan's reactor for energy. Though if we go that route, it might be a good idea to create a unique damage table for Plasma weapons that integrates results from the 'weapon' and 'reactor' tables. Probably not including blowing up the entire Titan, but there could certainly be blowback to the Carapace and/or Reactor.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:55 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Ah, right, I guess I was confusing the two discussions. That makes sense then. Since I'm outnumbered on that point, I'll have to concede it.

If the restrictions are dropped, they may as well all be dropped. It could be explained that there are no restrictions because the Plasma weapons now contain their own miniature reactor and thus are not dependent on the Titan's reactor for energy. Though if we go that route, it might be a good idea to create a unique damage table for Plasma weapons that integrates results from the 'weapon' and 'reactor' tables. Probably not including blowing up the entire Titan, but there could certainly be blowback to the Carapace and/or Reactor.


Hi!

WOW! I REALLY like that idea of giving plasma weapons their own damage slot! :)

But wouldn't this be better for platinum, I don't want to change to much the gold format, of is that change okay for gold?

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:18 pm 
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Well, removing the restrictions in Gold is a major change. Still, you make a good point. It might be best to leave all major changes to Platinum, restriction dropping and damage slot.

On the other hand, it wouldn't be that difficult to have each Plasma weapon have two entries in the chart, regardless of edition. For example:
Plasma Destructor, linked: 125 (may not fire other weapons or move next turn)
Plasma Destructor, self-powered: 225 (no restrictions)
Doing that would give people choices. Spend more points and gain move dakka, or spend fewer points and be restricted.

[I've put 225 in as the cost as looking at them side by side, a 75 point difference may not be sufficient.]

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:55 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Well, removing the restrictions in Gold is a major change. Still, you make a good point. It might be best to leave all major changes to Platinum, restriction dropping and damage slot.

On the other hand, it wouldn't be that difficult to have each Plasma weapon have two entries in the chart, regardless of edition. For example:
Plasma Destructor, linked: 125 (may not fire other weapons or move next turn)
Plasma Destructor, self-powered: 225 (no restrictions)
Doing that would give people choices. Spend more points and gain move dakka, or spend fewer points and be restricted.

[I've put 225 in as the cost as looking at them side by side, a 75 point difference may not be sufficient.]


Hi!

I like this. I'll include the option. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:32 pm 
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These are for platinum right....not Gold.


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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:44 pm 
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It was proposed to just drop the restrictions entirely for Gold, and my thought (perhaps poorly phrased) was that either dropping them should wait until Platinum or the option to buy either form of weapon should be in included in Gold as well as in Platinum.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:14 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
It was proposed to just drop the restrictions entirely for Gold, and my thought (perhaps poorly phrased) was that either dropping them should wait until Platinum or the option to buy either form of weapon should be in included in Gold as well as in Platinum.


Hi!

The option for plasma weapons with restrictions will be left in, but the baseline is the weapons without them. The opinions was strongly in favor of ditching the restrictions (I agree with that opinion as well). However there is no issue with keeping the original form as an option.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:12 am 
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And about removing access to Quake Cannon for the Warhound ?


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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:38 am 
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Sorry for double posting but:

- with close combat weapons free, we'll met a big problem: dual CC weapons equiped warhounds!

If warhound chassis stays at 125 points, we'll see many and many of them. Often with a close combat claw and a chain fist (3D6+8 + reroll CC dices). Even with cost round up to 150 points, you can field 6 for 900 points...

- In my player group, we're experimenting warhound chassis at 175 points and dual CC weapons is prohibited. That makes warhounds more expensive and quite less effective in CC but we were bored of dual chain fist warhounds that kill anything they engage in close combat.


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