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Gold Summary for Chaos

 Post subject: Gold Summary for Chaos
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:08 pm 
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Hi!

This is the summary for Chaos gold.

1. Khorne Engines price reduced to 250 per formation

2. Cannon of khorne has the deamon engine ability removed allowing first fire.

3. Iron warrior Warsmith added command ability

4. Iron Warrior vindicator company reduced cost to 500.

5. Lord of Battles, edit description. As command it can first fire.

6. Banelords may first fire. Command unit at 700 points.

7. Chaos fliers cost: Hell talon acost reduced to 250.

8. Cultist rider CAF upgraded to +2

9. Missing chaos termiantor HQ stats. Should reflect marine counterparts in stats.

10. Missing Command Chaos Marine Bike Stats: as Chaos Marine Bike with a +1 bonus to Caf (+3 instead of +2 for CSM Bike) and gain Command and HQ abilities.

11. On the Chaos Marine List, the "Drop Pods" Special Formation adds +5 to the formation's BP. This value should be +7 for Chaos Marines, as their Companies do not have any Rhinos to replace.

12. The Thousand sons break points and victory points values are incorrect. The corrected break points are 5+6 (5 for the two TS foramtions and 6 for the automatons). The corrected VP values are 4+2 (4 for the TS and 2 for the automatons.


Anything else mentioned is for Platinum.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Chaos
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:26 pm 
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primarch wrote:
5. Lord of Battles: remove deamon engine ability, allows first fire.

6. Banelords may first fire. Any ability or reference that it cannot is removed. Cost 700 with an addition of 5cm to its base move.

7. Chaos fliers cost: Hell talon are TWO models for 350.


5. This seems like a bad idea. Removing the Daemon Engine ability has several ramifications. Firstly, it would gain the ability to use Chaos Reward cards to save itself, which should not be allowed as it is clearly mechanical. Second, it would lose the Khorne bonuses if Chaos is winning, as those are tied to being a Daemon Engine. Third, it is irrelevant anyway as the Lord is a Greater Daemon Engine, which means that it counts as a Command unit, does not receive orders at all, and is thus already able to First Fire. Thus the only thing that needs to be removed is any place where it says "... may not be given First Fire orders..." as it does not receive orders anyway.

6. This is also a bad idea. To achieve: "Any ability or reference that it cannot is removed." you have to remove the Daemon Engine (of Khorne) ability, which means that it would also have to lose the bonuses gained if the Chaos side was winning. In other words, you destroy the flavor of the unit and turn it into a normal Warlord Titan, just armed with short-range weaponry.

The main that I can think of to fix this would be to make it a Greater Daemon Engine, but that would change it into a Company card, and should increase the cost by two to three hundred. It is not intended to be a Company, so this is a bad idea as well.

The increase to Move is a good idea.

The only other thing that I can think of, based on the Points Cost formula calculations, would be a price drop of about 100 for a cost of 600. I know I argued against this earlier, but I hadn't been working with the formula then. (As reference, in the formula, including the Move increase, a Banelord currently comes to 608 points.)

7. This seems like an overreaction. While they are not as good as their 350 points cost would indicate, I don't think they are as bad as half that. Perhaps just a 100 to 150 points drop in price, for a cost of 250 or 200 per single model. Besides, bombers are rarely deployed in multiples.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Chaos
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:45 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
primarch wrote:
5. Lord of Battles: remove deamon engine ability, allows first fire.

6. Banelords may first fire. Any ability or reference that it cannot is removed. Cost 700 with an addition of 5cm to its base move.

7. Chaos fliers cost: Hell talon are TWO models for 350.


5. This seems like a bad idea. Removing the Daemon Engine ability has several ramifications. Firstly, it would gain the ability to use Chaos Reward cards to save itself, which should not be allowed as it is clearly mechanical. Second, it would lose the Khorne bonuses if Chaos is winning, as those are tied to being a Daemon Engine. Third, it is irrelevant anyway as the Lord is a Greater Daemon Engine, which means that it counts as a Command unit, does not receive orders at all, and is thus already able to First Fire. Thus the only thing that needs to be removed is any place where it says "... may not be given First Fire orders..." as it does not receive orders anyway.

6. This is also a bad idea. To achieve: "Any ability or reference that it cannot is removed." you have to remove the Daemon Engine (of Khorne) ability, which means that it would also have to lose the bonuses gained if the Chaos side was winning. In other words, you destroy the flavor of the unit and turn it into a normal Warlord Titan, just armed with short-range weaponry.

The main that I can think of to fix this would be to make it a Greater Daemon Engine, but that would change it into a Company card, and should increase the cost by two to three hundred. It is not intended to be a Company, so this is a bad idea as well.

The increase to Move is a good idea.

The only other thing that I can think of, based on the Points Cost formula calculations, would be a price drop of about 100 for a cost of 600. I know I argued against this earlier, but I hadn't been working with the formula then. (As reference, in the formula, including the Move increase, a Banelord currently comes to 608 points.)

7. This seems like an overreaction. While they are not as good as their 350 points cost would indicate, I don't think they are as bad as half that. Perhaps just a 100 to 150 points drop in price, for a cost of 250 or 200 per single model. Besides, bombers are rarely deployed in multiples.



Hi!

Well on 5 and 6, that what my read of the whole thread seemed to indicate as consensus. At the very least, the LOB needs first fire. That can be added to the description as an added boon. It doesn't necessarily mean it has to lose the deamon engine ability.

As for the Banelord, it seems the feeling was very strong on that it HAS TO have first fire, otherwise it doesn't get used. The adding to the move was less strongly suggested than adding first fire. So it seems people can do without the move increase, but have to have the first fire restriction lifted.

I can leave with 7. One model 250? Sounds good to me.

If people what to debate things further, now is the time.

I assume all else is okay?

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Chaos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:29 am 
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As I mentioned in the third point about the LOB, it is already a Command unit and thus always fires on First Fire. The places where it says that it cannot are in error and should be removed.

Oh. There's the solution for the Banelord right there. We make it a Command unit. Not a Greater Daemon Engine, but just give it the Command ability. This would mean that it no longer receives order counters, but always moves on Charge and always fires on First Fire. This way both sides (of the discussion) win. It is still able to move into combat where needed, and gains FF. Also doing this would make it worth its point value of 700, and be a good deal at that. [Its calculated value comes to 741 including Command.]

Everything else was expected or a unit / formation I don't deal with. Except possibly point 9. Still, that one is simple to extrapolate, since the Chaos Terminator is (stat-wise) identical to a Marine Terminator, a Chaos HQ one should be identical to the Marine HQ.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Chaos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:05 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
As I mentioned in the third point about the LOB, it is already a Command unit and thus always fires on First Fire. The places where it says that it cannot are in error and should be removed.

Oh. There's the solution for the Banelord right there. We make it a Command unit. Not a Greater Daemon Engine, but just give it the Command ability. This would mean that it no longer receives order counters, but always moves on Charge and always fires on First Fire. This way both sides (of the discussion) win. It is still able to move into combat where needed, and gains FF. Also doing this would make it worth its point value of 700, and be a good deal at that. [Its calculated value comes to 741 including Command.]

Everything else was expected or a unit / formation I don't deal with. Except possibly point 9. Still, that one is simple to extrapolate, since the Chaos Terminator is (stat-wise) identical to a Marine Terminator, a Chaos HQ one should be identical to the Marine HQ.


Hi!

Ah, okay edit LOB and I like the banelord as command. Eliminates a lot of problems. I would not give it the extra movement then as being able to charge and first fire is good enough.

Yeah, I'll deal with all the unit/formation changes. It a lot of work in it of itself. :)

Agree on editing the chaos terminator stats to be the same as their marine counter parts.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Chaos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:31 pm 
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Reducing the Banelord's Move back down to 15cm brings its calculated cost to 705, thus 700 for Gold should be good.

I see you have adjusted most of the first post, but you seem to have forgotten point 7. Reference three posts above.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Chaos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:53 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Reducing the Banelord's Move back down to 15cm brings its calculated cost to 705, thus 700 for Gold should be good.

I see you have adjusted most of the first post, but you seem to have forgotten point 7. Reference three posts above.


Hi!

Fixed.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Chaos
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:36 am 
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Oh, for point 1, I'm guessing you just mean the Khorne Daemon Engines, as those were what the discussion was about, and more specifically the formation on the Khorne list called "Demonic Engines". If so, that should be specified. If you mean all powers' Daemon Engines, then you'd be increasing the cost of many of them and I doubt that is your intent.

I would also propose changing the formation's name to "Khorne Daemon Engines" or just "Daemon Engines" as there is nowhere else in 40K or Epic that the word "Demon" or "Demonic" is used. (that I know of anyway)

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Chaos
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:13 pm 
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Daemon Engines of Khorne were the intended unit for the change in points value, yes.

I agree that the original changes proposed to the Lord of Battles/Banelord were not as initially described. I think that the revised changes are more in keeping with what was intended. The main change agreed was to the Cannons of Khorne.

Lowering Daemon Engine costs is okay, and I think that the command rule solves the other issues without having to do things like removing the Daemon Engine ability, which has always been an integral part of the Lord of Battles.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Chaos
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:32 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Oh, for point 1, I'm guessing you just mean the Khorne Daemon Engines, as those were what the discussion was about, and more specifically the formation on the Khorne list called "Demonic Engines". If so, that should be specified. If you mean all powers' Daemon Engines, then you'd be increasing the cost of many of them and I doubt that is your intent.

I would also propose changing the formation's name to "Khorne Daemon Engines" or just "Daemon Engines" as there is nowhere else in 40K or Epic that the word "Demon" or "Demonic" is used. (that I know of anyway)


Hi!

Point clarified.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Chaos
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:33 pm 
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Irisado wrote:
Daemon Engines of Khorne were the intended unit for the change in points value, yes.

I agree that the original changes proposed to the Lord of Battles/Banelord were not as initially described. I think that the revised changes are more in keeping with what was intended. The main change agreed was to the Cannons of Khorne.

Lowering Daemon Engine costs is okay, and I think that the command rule solves the other issues without having to do things like removing the Daemon Engine ability, which has always been an integral part of the Lord of Battles.


Hi!

looks like the consensus train is moving right along. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Chaos
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:00 pm 
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I'm playing Chaos tomorrow with a Banelord Titan so will let you know how it goes with it having the Command ability (though less of a problem because I'm playing Evolution). Having looked at the points cost & weapons I'm still appalled that this costs 700 points! Are the ranges in the Chaos Gold book correct?

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Chaos
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:27 am 
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The Bissler wrote:
I'm playing Chaos tomorrow with a Banelord Titan so will let you know how it goes with it having the Command ability (though less of a problem because I'm playing Evolution). Having looked at the points cost & weapons I'm still appalled that this costs 700 points! Are the ranges in the Chaos Gold book correct?


Hi!

As far as I know.

Let us know how the test goes.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Chaos
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:29 am 
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Ye Gods! Mind you, with Command ability I should be able to get the Banelord into the action on Turn 2. I can well imagine why people found them useless without this ability though.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold Summary for Chaos
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:27 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
Ye Gods! Mind you, with Command ability I should be able to get the Banelord into the action on Turn 2. I can well imagine why people found them useless without this ability though.


Hi!

Well, that was the point of the change! ;)

Any unit that doesn't get used (or used ALL the time), usually means there is something wrong with it.

Hopefully we didn't make it too good.

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