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Army List: Tau

 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:58 pm 
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Yeah 40k range, I quickly looked at the codex and got my 6 and 8 mixed up ::)

PD aren't just bolt gun weapons, lots of weapons are used for PD, storm bolters, heavy bolters, las guns. Again, there isn't an exact science. Although it tends to be those vehicles that already have reasonable arsenals that have some of their weapons relegated to PD. Now those cases are more justifiable as the PD weapons are usually automated or slave controlled so it fits in with the "firing on First Fire" rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:09 am 
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Mattman wrote:
The way I have been looking at things in the marine list is how many men could they kill. 4 AD means you can take out 4 stands or the equivalent of 20 men! Obviously it isn't an exact science, but things get ridiculous when you start giving things 4 or more dice (outside of titan weapons), even 3 is possibly pushing it.

While going through the review of the marines, I started giving things with assault cannons and heavy bolters lots of AD, but have since reigned myself in and tried to keep things to 2 unless it's a special case. Even the upcoming Fire Raptor I am working on which has 4 twin linked heavy bolters I am only giving 2AD.

Given that burst cannons also only have a 16" range, there could be an argument for making them into PD attacks rather than actual weapons.

I am not saying we shouldn't give lots of AD, especially if the points are costed correctly, just be careful.

Matt

The chance to take out 4 stands with 4 dice is quite low and yes 4 AD for the remoras are too much 2 would fit perfect.


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:29 pm 
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ulric wrote:
Mattman wrote:
The way I have been looking at things in the marine list is how many men could they kill. 4 AD means you can take out 4 stands or the equivalent of 20 men! Obviously it isn't an exact science, but things get ridiculous when you start giving things 4 or more dice (outside of titan weapons), even 3 is possibly pushing it.

While going through the review of the marines, I started giving things with assault cannons and heavy bolters lots of AD, but have since reigned myself in and tried to keep things to 2 unless it's a special case. Even the upcoming Fire Raptor I am working on which has 4 twin linked heavy bolters I am only giving 2AD.

Given that burst cannons also only have a 16" range, there could be an argument for making them into PD attacks rather than actual weapons.

I am not saying we shouldn't give lots of AD, especially if the points are costed correctly, just be careful.

Matt

The chance to take out 4 stands with 4 dice is quite low and yes 4 AD for the remoras are too much 2 would fit perfect.


Of course, but even 1 AD represents the chance of taking out the equivalent of 5 men.

I am trying to think of it along the lines of the AD just represents the weapon shooting in a single round of 40k and isn't completely related to its rate of fire in that game. But some special circumstances can tweak those numbers like being twinlinked, modified or controlled in some special way.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:14 pm 
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I apologize if this has been covered.

The Barracuda has a Weapon called "AA Seeker Missiles". In the Notes column, this weapon is noted as being Guided, but not as having AA. I'm guessing that leaving off AA was a typo.

Both Tiger Shark variants have this same error. Now I'm not so sure if leaving AA out of the Notes was the typo or the name of the weapon(s) was the typo.

Any opinions on these?

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:20 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I apologize if this has been covered.

The Barracuda has a Weapon called "AA Seeker Missiles". In the Notes column, this weapon is noted as being Guided, but not as having AA. I'm guessing that leaving off AA was a typo.

Both Tiger Shark variants have this same error. Now I'm not so sure if leaving AA out of the Notes was the typo or the name of the weapon(s) was the typo.

Any opinions on these?


Hi!

I'll look into these when I get back from my trip on the 18th. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:05 am 
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The unit entry description for the Barracuda says that they often fill the role of an interceptor, but neither Tiger Shark variant includes that language, so I'm going to give the Barracuda's missiles the AA ability, but not for the Tiger Sharks.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:32 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
The unit entry description for the Barracuda says that they often fill the role of an interceptor, but neither Tiger Shark variant includes that language, so I'm going to give the Barracuda's missiles the AA ability, but not for the Tiger Sharks.


Hi!

Sounds reasonable.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:07 pm 
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Hi!

In regards to the Barracuda seeker missiles and other units marked as "AA seeker missiles", would indeed have to have added the AA ability to distinguish it from plain seeker missiles.

The AA ability needs to be added to these missiles.

I will add this to the list of corrections.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:37 pm 
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primarch wrote:
Hi!

In regards to the Barracuda seeker missiles and other units marked as "AA seeker missiles", would indeed have to have added the AA ability to distinguish it from plain seeker missiles.

The AA ability needs to be added to these missiles.

I will add this to the list of corrections.

Primarch


Sorry, I'm not quite following what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that the Tiger Shark variants ARE supposed to have the AA ability?

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:02 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
primarch wrote:
Hi!

In regards to the Barracuda seeker missiles and other units marked as "AA seeker missiles", would indeed have to have added the AA ability to distinguish it from plain seeker missiles.

The AA ability needs to be added to these missiles.

I will add this to the list of corrections.

Primarch


Sorry, I'm not quite following what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that the Tiger Shark variants ARE supposed to have the AA ability?


Hi!

As far as I can tell (and remember) they were meant to have them too, yes.

Now, whether I like having fliers with AA capable missiles or not, to be frank I am unsure on its impact.

Granted in real life all sorts of planes have air-to-air missiles, but as AA is defined in game I wonder if its unbalanced.

I also am unaware how these would interact with the proposed fliers rules in the platinum version.

Frankly I would change all of them to just "seeker missiles" and leave only the skyray as AA capable. But the playtesting data that was done had those fliers WITH AA capability. I unfortunately have no experience with them to be able to say either way.

My "gut" says to remove AA from those fliers though.

What's your take?

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:54 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
The unit entry description for the Barracuda says that they often fill the role of an interceptor, but neither Tiger Shark variant includes that language, so I'm going to give the Barracuda's missiles the AA ability, but not for the Tiger Sharks.


My only familiarity with Tau is in Gold here. Well, I have played as and against them in Dawn of War: Soulstorm but that is hardly the same thing. Thus my feeling is to go with what I posted above.

If we could get someone who is familiar with Tau in W40K to comment on this, that would be great.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:35 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
The unit entry description for the Barracuda says that they often fill the role of an interceptor, but neither Tiger Shark variant includes that language, so I'm going to give the Barracuda's missiles the AA ability, but not for the Tiger Sharks.


My only familiarity with Tau is in Gold here. Well, I have played as and against them in Dawn of War: Soulstorm but that is hardly the same thing. Thus my feeling is to go with what I posted above.

If we could get someone who is familiar with Tau in W40K to comment on this, that would be great.


Hi!

Having no experience with them, I will go with your interpretation. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:14 pm 
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Hi all,

I know that I arrive a bit after the battle but I was not really involved Taus until few monthes ago when I started collecting them :)

I have few questions to clarify some things in codex that are not really clear:

- Sha'vre:
They come in a unit with a Sha'el or Sha'o (1 Sha'o & 3 Sha'vre or 1 Sha'el & xSha'vre). Sha'o & Sha'el are Command units but not Sha'vres so it means that for this unit, you have to place orders for Sha'vres but not for the Sha'o/Sha'el. I think that Sha'vre should gain the Command ability too as they form a single unit but only Sha'o and Sha'el would be HQ (as they currently are)

- Markerlight:
Has this "weapon" a 360° arc of fire ability ? I suppose yes for infantry/cavalry but the Skyray also has Markerlight ability. On this unit, Markerlight is placed on the turret (at extremity of each weapon rack) so I suppose it's a 360° but if not, this means that Skyray are not able to mark at flyers (only turreted/360° aof/AA vehicle weapons can target at flyers).

- AA seekers missiles:
AA seekers missiles on flyers should only be able to target at flyers but they are not AA as per standard "AA rule". They do not gain a 360° arc of fire, can not snap fire at flyers without penalty and can not fire during first fire segment. AA seekers missiles are bound to the 180° flyer front fire arc but can shoot at flyers during advance fire segment.
Why it is important to keep AA seekers missiles on Barracudas & TigerSharks: If you remove those missiles from TigerSharks, Tau have a very poor AA cover...Skyrays detachments have 2*4+/-1 AA shots for 150 points. That's 1 hit per squadron. Very low on result if you compare to the best AA units in the game : Hydra = 4 hits for 300 points/2 hits for 150 points; Firestorm = 1.5 hit for 150 points (but TSM -2).
So getting the possibility to use seekers missiles on Barracudas AND Tigersharks open a possibility to have a correct AA cover for the Taus.

Thanks for reading :)


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:51 pm 
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scream wrote:
Hi all,

I know that I arrive a bit after the battle but I was not really involved Taus until few monthes ago when I started collecting them :)

I have few questions to clarify some things in codex that are not really clear:

- Sha'vre:
They come in a unit with a Sha'el or Sha'o (1 Sha'o & 3 Sha'vre or 1 Sha'el & xSha'vre). Sha'o & Sha'el are Command units but not Sha'vres so it means that for this unit, you have to place orders for Sha'vres but not for the Sha'o/Sha'el. I think that Sha'vre should gain the Command ability too as they form a single unit but only Sha'o and Sha'el would be HQ (as they currently are)

- Markerlight:
Has this "weapon" a 360° arc of fire ability ? I suppose yes for infantry/cavalry but the Skyray also has Markerlight ability. On this unit, Markerlight is placed on the turret (at extremity of each weapon rack) so I suppose it's a 360° but if not, this means that Skyray are not able to mark at flyers (only turreted/360° aof/AA vehicle weapons can target at flyers).

- AA seekers missiles:
AA seekers missiles on flyers should only be able to target at flyers but they are not AA as per standard "AA rule". They do not gain a 360° arc of fire, can not snap fire at flyers without penalty and can not fire during first fire segment. AA seekers missiles are bound to the 180° flyer front fire arc but can shoot at flyers during advance fire segment.
Why it is important to keep AA seekers missiles on Barracudas & TigerSharks: If you remove those missiles from TigerSharks, Tau have a very poor AA cover...Skyrays detachments have 2*4+/-1 AA shots for 150 points. That's 1 hit per squadron. Very low on result if you compare to the best AA units in the game : Hydra = 4 hits for 300 points/2 hits for 150 points; Firestorm = 1.5 hit for 150 points (but TSM -2).
So getting the possibility to use seekers missiles on Barracudas AND Tigersharks open a possibility to have a correct AA cover for the Taus.

Thanks for reading :)


Hi!

THis is one of the armies I have no experience with, so I think your in a better position to recommend what the answers are and I can make it so. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:49 pm 
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scream wrote:
I know that I arrive a bit after the battle but I was not really involved Tau until few months ago when I started collecting them :)

I have few questions to clarify some things in codex that are not really clear:

So many typos, it hurts. Sorry, but I had to fix them. I'm fairly certain that "Tau" is it's own plural, among other things. Oh, and welcome to the discussion.

Are you saying that you collect Tau in 40K? If so, then the input is helpful. If not, then less so.

scream wrote:
- Shas'vre:
They come in a unit with a Shas'el or Shas'o (1 Shas'o & 3 Shas'vre or 1 Shas'el & X Shas'vre). Shas'o & Shas'el are Command units but not Shas'vre so it means that for this unit, you have to place orders for Shas'vre but not for the Shas'o/Shas'el. I think that Shas'vre should gain the Command ability too as they form a single unit but only Shas'o and Shas'el would be HQ (as they currently are).

While the situation with Shas'vre is a bit odd, it is not unique. Squats have a lot of Formations that have a Command model in the same detachment as non-Command models. They also have to place an Order counter for the normal models while the Command model can do as it wants, so long as it stays within 6cm. Necrons (in the Slann/Necron pdf) also have this issue with their "Supreme Commander" Special Formation which includes a Platinum Lord (Command) and two stands of Immortals (not Command). Sisters of Battle have their "Sister Repentia" Special Formation with the same situation. PDF have two such Special Formations: the "Battalion Command" and "Regimental Command". I think that's all of the formations with this situation. Thus unless we are going to give Command to all of the related models in the various factions (which for Squats would mean giving Command to just about all of their Infantry and Cavalry models), I think it would be a bad idea to do so for the Tau's Shas'vre.

In other words, yes you have to place an Order counter for the Shas'vre. That is working as intended, it is not an error.

scream wrote:
- Markerlight:
Has this "weapon" a 360° arc of fire ability ? I suppose yes for infantry/cavalry but the Skyray also has Markerlight ability. On this unit, Markerlight is placed on the turret (at extremity of each weapon rack) so I suppose it's a 360° but if not, this means that Skyray are not able to mark at flyers (only turreted/360° aof/AA vehicle weapons can target at flyers).

It is my understanding that Markerlight is not a weapon. It is a Special Ability. As a Special Ability, it should be usable in a 360° arc for all models, unless stated otherwise for specific models. Perhaps the description of Markerlight should be adjusted to say this specifically.

None of the Skyray's weapons have the Turret ability. However, the Skyray does have the AA ability, so it doesn't need Turret. Admittedly, the AA ability is just for the AA Seeker Missiles, so they are able to target Flyers. Perhaps another addition to the description of Markerlight would handle this, saying: "If any weapon on a model with Markerlight can target Flyers, then the Markerlight on that model can also target Flyers."

scream wrote:
- AA Seeker Missiles:
AA Seeker Missiles on flyers should only be able to target at flyers but they are not AA as per standard "AA rule". They do not gain a 360° arc of fire, can not snap fire at flyers without penalty and can not fire during first fire segment. AA seekers missiles are bound to the 180° flyer front fire arc but can shoot at flyers during advance fire segment.

If I'm reading this correctly, you seem to be saying that NONE of the AA Seeker Missile entries on any flyer should have the AA ability. Is that correct? If that is what you are saying, then you seem to be directly contradicting your next paragraph.

I'd actually tend to agree that weapons on Flyers should not gain the AA ability. Frankly, this could easily be fixed by changing the wording (on pages 24 and 26 of the NEG core rules) slightly to make Flyers able to target other Flyers without penalty or restriction. Seriously, any weapon system on a Flyer (except Bombs and related) should be able to target other Flyers. This change would probably make the Flyer rules a bit more balanced, as Flyers would be able to engage each other without relying on their CAF.

scream wrote:
Why it is important to keep AA seekers missiles on Barracudas & Tiger Sharks: If you remove those missiles from Tiger Sharks, Tau have a very poor AA cover ... Skyray detachments have 2*4+/-1 AA shots for 150 points. That's 1 hit per squadron. Very low on result if you compare to the best AA units in the game : Hydra = 4 hits for 300 points/2 hits for 150 points; Firestorm = 1.5 hit for 150 points (but TSM -2).
So getting the possibility to use seekers missiles on Barracudas AND Tiger Sharks open a possibility to have a correct AA cover for the Tau.

First of all, nobody suggested removing the weapon entry for "AA Seeker Missiles" from any model. The discussion is because some weapons with that name have the AA ability while others do not. The discussion is about which ones should have the AA ability. You seemed to be saying, two paragraphs above, that none of them should - yet in the above paragraph you seem to be saying that they all should. Er, can you make up your mind?

Second, as they currently are in the rules for NetEpic Gold, neither the Barracuda nor either version of the Tiger Shark actually have the AA ability on any of their weapons. My suggestion was actually adding to the Tau's AA ability by giving the AA ability to the "AA Seeker Missiles" on the Barracuda. Thus nothing is being removed from the Tiger Sharks.

Third, comparing just the weapon systems on various models (and ignoring all of their other stats) by the full point value of the model is at best disingenuous and at worst intentionally misleading. [This is also something that the Points Formula will be good for - ensuring that every model pays for exactly the abilities that it gets.] Also, anything is going to seem low when compared to "the best in the game". That's why it's bad to do that.

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