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Army List: Tau

 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:20 am 
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In case anyone in this thread hasn't been following it, the Vior'la Tau army list I have been working on over in NetEA Tau incorporates the new models that were added to the 40k Codex and has some stats and points fleshed out by playtesting and experimentation.


New Units:
XV104 Riptide Formation
+ Shielded Missile Drones option
Cadre Fireblade option - an upgrade character that gives Firewarriors FF4+
Razorshark Strike Fighter
Sun Shark Bomber Squadron

The latest iteration is Version 0.9.

Check it out here:
Vior'la Thread viewtopic.php?f=23&t=24822


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:25 pm 
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How easy/conceivable is it to translate stats between NE:A and NE? Are we better off just going to the source material?

I was planning on taking a swing at the Sun and Razor sharks for NE sometime soon. Will be interesting to see how they compare with yours.

Also, just to update, here are the current outstanding issues for the Tau list

ForgottenLore wrote:
Point values for the Riptide to work out
issues with the Riptide's nova reactor to decide
probably tweaking of the riptide stats
more discussion needed about Kroot
A suggestion to rework crisis suit weapon load outs
and 7 (or more) units that already exist in the fluff that we don't have any stats for at all
the possibility of adding brand new units to fill holes in the existing army list

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:29 pm 
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ForgottenLore wrote:
How easy/conceivable is it to translate stats between NE:A and NE? Are we better off just going to the source material?

I was planning on taking a swing at the Sun and Razor sharks for NE sometime soon. Will be interesting to see how they compare with yours.

Also, just to update, here are the current outstanding issues for the Tau list

ForgottenLore wrote:
Point values for the Riptide to work out
issues with the Riptide's nova reactor to decide
probably tweaking of the riptide stats
more discussion needed about Kroot
A suggestion to rework crisis suit weapon load outs
and 7 (or more) units that already exist in the fluff that we don't have any stats for at all
the possibility of adding brand new units to fill holes in the existing army list


Hi!

Some of it can be ported over, the rest can be "translated". By all means take a look at the E:A list and adapt the ideas. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:43 am 
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@ringo wrote:
Yeah, that is part of the reason why we changed the stats around a bit - the official NetEpic Gold Tau hit rates seemed on the whole a bit excessive when we compared their WH40K stats with similar weapons and their stats in NetEpic. So we decided to add range and to some extent save modifiers, and reduce the to hit stats.

BTW I think the Riptide has BS2. I heard it described as a mobile terrain piece with a decent gun :)


:( where can I find new Tau stats?

thx

ulric


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:16 am 
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Not sure what your asking ulric?

ringo was taking about some house rules he plays with, not any official changes to Tau stats. Or where you asking where the current Tau rules for NetEpic Gold are? Or are you asking about the proposed changes we are discussing in this thread?

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:35 pm 
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Quote:
Or are you asking about the proposed changes we are discussing in this thread?

this one, I am very much into Tau please pillage not that poor little blueskins :D



Quote:
Maybe, but maybe not, we still have:

Point values for the Riptide to work out
issues with the Riptide's nova reactor to decide
probably tweaking of the riptide stats
more discussion needed about Kroot
A suggestion to rework crisis suit weapon load outs
and 7 (or more) units that already exist in the fluff that we don't have any stats for at all and we haven't discussed them at all.


That seems like a lot yet to do before we talk about inventing brand new units.


For the Riptide:
it should be a Knight class unit and if so it´s amour should be bettern than 4+ which is the same amour save of the command battlesuit units Shas´el Shas´o.

For the nova reactor:
at the beginning of the order phase roll a W6 for each riptide unit
on a roll 2-5 the unit may add or deduct one point from the following stats:
CAF, AS, To-hit(for one weapon), TSM(for one weapon)

on a roll of 1 the unit´s reactors overcharge too much and the units doing nothing for the rest of the turn
just a suggestion while I have not read everything here.


What do you mean with rework the crisis suits?
Do you mean they are too powerfull?
Indeed they are BUT they have to compensate the mostly limited in numbers and expensive Tau army.

I would love to help with the stats for new units :)


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:26 pm 
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ulric wrote:
Quote:
Or are you asking about the proposed changes we are discussing in this thread?

this one,

Ah, well then. As far as I know, all the proposed changes are right here in this thread. Here is a summary of what all is currently being discussed/proposed

Attachment:
Tau Army Book Revision Notes.doc [35.5 KiB]
Downloaded 197 times


Quote:
For the Riptide:
it should be a Knight class unit and if so it´s amour should be bettern than 4+ which is the same amour save of the command battlesuit units Shas´el Shas´o.

Hmmm, your right. Most knights seem to have a 2+ or 3+ save in addition to some kind of shielding.

anyone else want to weigh in on this?

Quote:
For the nova reactor:
at the beginning of the order phase roll a W6 for each riptide unit
on a roll 2-5 the unit may add or deduct one point from the following stats:
CAF, AS, To-hit(for one weapon), TSM(for one weapon)

on a roll of 1 the unit´s reactors overcharge too much and the units doing nothing for the rest of the turn
just a suggestion while I have not read everything here.


Hmm. I personally am hesitant to add additional dice rolls, I'm afraid it will slow the game down too much to be needing to roll that every turn, but I could be wrong. "for each riptide unit" do you mean each individual suit or each detachment of 3 suits? Most knights in the game are deployed in detachments of 3 and we have been assuming the Riptide would be as well. If your nova roll is for each individual suit, that would mean at least 3 different rolls each turn for the reactor, if its for the whole detachment that seems to go contrary to the fluff behind the concept...

Quote:
What do you mean with rework the crisis suits?

Not necessarily changing their power level, but reworking the weapon loadout. Currently the NetEpic army book for Tau has 2 variations of the Crisis. Ringo suggested on the previous page that we should change the weapons on the suit to give them more specific battlefield roles. So far no one else has commented on this. I myself am somewhat torn. I like the idea of clearly defined roles for suit configurations (and using the "traditional" names), but I no have a bunch of miniatures that are armed in the current configurations.

Basically, a number of things have been suggested but so far there hasn't been much discussion about them. I don't have enough experience actually playing the game to judge point costs or balance issues and the people that do have been occupied lately tweaking some of the core rules and more popular armies.

By all means, any ideas or comments you have, post them. The more input we have from Tau players the better we can make the list.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:06 pm 
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Hey thanks ForgottonLore.

-Although the CAF value of the Riptide should be higher compared to the Shas`O commander
but I am not much into the WH40K fluff so I do not know how the Riptide is compared to teh Shas`O

-my dice rolls should be for the whole detachment
but I am also fine with your suggestion.

-Crisis suits weapon load outs
I am with you here
Maybe keep the existing variants and just add another 1 or 2 e.g.XV-9?
- more units for the Tau airforce? of course :)

-there are already some models for the heavy gundrones....do it.

-about the Remoras...there was a discussion between me Zap123 and Juffo-Wupp
ending up with these...it´s ZAP´s suggestion I think

Tigershark AX-2-2:
Move 60cm; Save 3+; CAF +2
Burst Cannons 35cm; 4 Dice; 4+ to hit; 0 TSM
AA Seeker Missiles* 75cm; 1 Dice; 4+ to hit; -1 TSM
Flyer, Superheavy, *Guided Missiles, Transport 2 (Remoras only), ECM, Remora Control Craft

Remora Stealth Drone Fighters:
Move 60cm; Save 5+; CAF +0
Burst Cannons 35cm; 4 Dice; 6+ to hit; 0 TSM
Flyer, Drone, Markerlight; ECM, Remote Controlled, Air Cover

Special Rules:
Remote Controlled: While within 50cm of the control craft the Remoras gain +1 to hit and +2 CAF.
Air Cover: While in Base-to-base with their control craft, any hits on the Tigershark have a chance of hitting a Remora instead. Roll a D6 and on a result of 6 the shot has hit a Remora and is resolved against it and not the Tigershark. When engaged in CC, the Remoras must be engaged before the Control Craft is engaged.
ECM: An additional -1 to hit the Remoras and Tigershark AX-2-2.
Remora Control Craft: The Tigershark AX-2-2 starts the game with two Remoras active and two in its hold. The Tigershark AX-2-2 cannot control more than 2 Remoras at a time. At the start of the movement phase the Tigershark AX-2-2 may launch one or both of its remaining Remoras if it has less than 2 Remoras in play. If the Tigershark is destroyed all Remoras are removed from play.

Support Card: Remora Stealth Fighter Formation
1 Tigershark AX-2-2
4 Remora Stealth Fighter Drones (2 active, 2 transported)
Cost: 400pts; BP: Tigershark AX-2-2; VPs: 4


I used the Remoras in 4-5 Battles now.
I used them with their carrier and without as a detachment out of 4 drones.
With this stats:
Remora Stealth Drone Fighters:
Move 80cm; Save 6fixed+; CAF +1
Burst Cannons 35cm; 4 Dice; 5+ to hit; 0 TSM
AA-seeker missiles 2x one-shoot 5+ to hit -1TSM
Flyer, Drone, Markerlight; ECM, Remote Controlled, Air Cover(woks on +4 NOT +6)

which is slightly better than ZAP´s suggestion.
They also gain +1 to to-hit and CAF while within 50cm to a carrier.

I like to use them they are a nice idea used as escort fighters and they are so beutiful minis :spin

The single detachment gets NO bonus and can´t do escort missions.


They worked out fine nothing powerfull but funny.
When used as a detachment you can boost up the Tau´s airforce numbers but you will need 2 drones per enemy fighter
since the CAF(+1) is poor.
They can give nice firesupport while using their one-shoot missiles but then they are just Inf. hunters.


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:42 am 
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Are burst cannons really 4 attack dice? Seems quite high.


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:56 pm 
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Quote:
Not necessarily changing their power level, but reworking the weapon loadout. Currently the NetEpic army book for Tau has 2 variations of the Crisis. Ringo suggested on the previous page that we should change the weapons on the suit to give them more specific battlefield roles. So far no one else has commented on this. I myself am somewhat torn. I like the idea of clearly defined roles for suit configurations (and using the "traditional" names), but I no have a bunch of miniatures that are armed in the current configurations.


Another approach could be to make a list of all the diffrent crisis weapons and let the players pick 2 choices from the list - only limitation is that the entire detachment must have the same set-up.

@ringo


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:25 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
Are burst cannons really 4 attack dice? Seems quite high.

They are if used by other flyers
you can go with 2 here too.
Actually I am not really sure if I played the Remoras with 2 or 4 maybe I played them with 2 already.
Might be better compared to bigger flyers


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:03 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
Are burst cannons really 4 attack dice? Seems quite high.

On crisis suits they are 3 dice
On Hammerheads and Devilfishthey are 2 dice (that doesn't seem right either, they are the same weapon)
The Heavy Burst Cannons on the Hammerhead are 6 dice
On the Barracuda and tigersharks they are 4 dice
On the swordfish they are 3 dice
On the Moray and Manta they are 6 dice

In 40K, Burst cannons originally (when these stats were made) had 3 attacks per shot. The most recent Tau codex has since upped that to 4 dice.

in the background from Forgeworld the Barracuda and the Tigershark both have 2 Burst Cannons that are not twin linked, while the Epic stats only give them a single weapon. That might be where the extra die came from.

As for the Remora, the 40K background and rules I have for it say it is armed with a twin linked long-barreled burst cannon, which is an improved weapon system from FW that seems to have been translated into Epic as the Heavy Burst Cannon, which would actually be giving the thing even more dice. I haven't really had a chance to read over ulric's rules however, so I don't know. I'll try and read them in detail soon and post my thoughts then.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:52 pm 
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@Forgottonlove http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=11824&hilit=remora+drone
follow the link, the discussion about the Remora Srone Carrier


I placed for me the stats between Juffo Wupps and Zaps because Zaps Remoras are quite bad and Juffo-Wupps are really hard.

With the stats me using
60cm(maybe 60 would be better) CAF +1 AS 6+fixed
Weapons:
Burst cannons 35cm 4 or 2 x 4+ TSM 0
AA seeker missiles 50cm 2 x one-shoot 4+ TSM -1

They are okay but not superb Units and something different


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:42 pm 
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The way I have been looking at things in the marine list is how many men could they kill. 4 AD means you can take out 4 stands or the equivalent of 20 men! Obviously it isn't an exact science, but things get ridiculous when you start giving things 4 or more dice (outside of titan weapons), even 3 is possibly pushing it.

While going through the review of the marines, I started giving things with assault cannons and heavy bolters lots of AD, but have since reigned myself in and tried to keep things to 2 unless it's a special case. Even the upcoming Fire Raptor I am working on which has 4 twin linked heavy bolters I am only giving 2AD.

Given that burst cannons also only have a 16" range, there could be an argument for making them into PD attacks rather than actual weapons.

I am not saying we shouldn't give lots of AD, especially if the points are costed correctly, just be careful.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:49 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
Given that burst cannons also only have a 16" range, there could be an argument for making them into PD attacks rather than actual weapons.

18" range. Assuming you are talking about he 40k weapon and not converting the epic cm to inches for some reason.

I also thought about whether BCs should be point defense and I just don't think so. Yeah, on the surface they kinda look like a souped up Bolter, they aren't really used like it. In many cases they are meant and used as a primary weapon system.

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