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Army List: Tau

 Post subject: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:32 pm 
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Hi!

This thread is for posting on anything related to the revision of the Tau Book.

Those whom wish to supervise this list, please state so in your post and compile an editable document of the changes that are posted.

Thank you!

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:34 pm 
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Hi!

Status Update:

If you choose to "lead" a particular army, just post a message on the respective army thread as to where you are on reading the books for corrections and such.

This is just to get an idea to see where we are all at. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:19 am 
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Kroot Headhunters should probably be updated as per the discussion about Howling Banshee and Striking Scorpion in the Eldar thread. To put that another way:

PROPOSAL:
Replace "This attack is ineffective against targets with an Armour save" with "This attack is only effective against Infantry, Cavalry, and non-robotic Light Artillery that do not have a fixed save".

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:48 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Kroot Headhunters should probably be updated as per the discussion about Howling Banshee and Striking Scorpion in the Eldar thread. To put that another way:

PROPOSAL:
Replace "This attack is ineffective against targets with an Armour save" with "This attack is only effective against Infantry, Cavalry, and non-robotic Light Artillery that do not have a fixed save".


Hi!

That's one unit I would not have thought of. Good pick up. :)

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Kroot support cards
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:25 am 
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I want to make sure I correctly understand how kroot work in army building.

If I take all Tau company cards, I can take Kroot support (and special?) cards, and still be able to take 25% allies from another army. But if I take any Kroot company cards, then Kroot are the ally and are limited to 25% of my force.

Is that right?

If I am taking Kroot as allies, can my Tau companies still take Kroot support cards? (so you could end up with more than 25% of your army being Kroot)

That is not well explained in the Tau army book.

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 Post subject: Re: Kroot support cards
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:24 am 
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ForgottenLore wrote:
I want to make sure I correctly understand how kroot work in army building.

If I take all Tau company cards, I can take Kroot support (and special?) cards, and still be able to take 25% allies from another army. But if I take any Kroot company cards, then Kroot are the ally and are limited to 25% of my force.

Is that right?

If I am taking Kroot as allies, can my Tau companies still take Kroot support cards? (so you could end up with more than 25% of your army being Kroot)

That is not well explained in the Tau army book.


Hi!

I agree. I found myself scratching my head when I made the forces for my test game. So they are definitely no clear.

I need to overhaul those sections in each book to simple straight forward language.

I think your interpretation is correct by the way, but we need to make it easier to understand. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:36 am 
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Actually, the Tau and Kroot army construction rules seem very straight-forward to me. Based on the fluff in that book, they make sense. Keep in mind I have nearly no exposure to Tau outside the NetEpic PDF.

Still, if people think they should be more integrated, we could change the allowances on the Tau 75% to include all Kroot formations, including Companies. In other words, allow a Codex Tau force to freely include Kroot formations. If that were done, we'd probably want to remove the ability for Tau Companies to add Kroot Support and Specials though.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:53 am 
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I wasn't necessarily suggesting a change, I just wanted the existing rule clarified as the writing seems a bit confusing.

Assuming I correctly interpreted the rule, I think it makes perfect sense with the way the kroot work in the fluff, I just wasn't sure if that was really what it was saying.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:02 pm 
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ForgottenLore wrote:
I wasn't necessarily suggesting a change, I just wanted the existing rule clarified as the writing seems a bit confusing.

Assuming I correctly interpreted the rule, I think it makes perfect sense with the way the kroot work in the fluff, I just wasn't sure if that was really what it was saying.


Hi!

Like I mentioned in my response to your introductory post, a set of fresh eyes is really needed for revising these books. While I or Magnus may not have too much difficulty with them, we may not be the best gauge for its clarity (myself in particular), since we have been involved with the rules for a while.

If you had trouble with them, that tells me they need fine tuning, since the goal is that no clarifications are needed and a simple reading would suffice.

I find the way they read a little "dense" myself, but that may be just my particular tastes on phrasing.

I believe its worth a look to see if we can improve them. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:18 am 
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Hi,

Any thoughts on stats for the xv104 riptide?

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:50 pm 
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@ringo wrote:
Hi,

Any thoughts on stats for the xv104 riptide?

Nils


Hi!

I was thinking about that, but I would need to know what is its battlefield role?

I am not proficient in modern 40k units, so any fluff/explanation would help me to come up with stats.

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 7:07 pm 
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I found this description:

Quote:
Battlefield Role

By itself the Riptide is not particularly “killy”. For the same points, both Broadsides and XV8’s can lay down more firepower. However, that’s not the point. Neither of them can bring the “package” that the Riptide brings. And that is the key to the Riptide’s success – what it brings to your Cadre is “utility” - you can do things with the Riptide you simply can not do with other elements of your Cadre.

For Example

· Durability. Riptides are pretty tough – even against low AP weapons (with a Nova Charged 3++), and particularly if they bring a stim injector. Only Broadsides compete in the toughness stakes, and then not very convincingly. As a result they make great …

· Fire Magnets. It takes a disciplined opponent to ignore the big scary monster that really isn’t doing that much damage to their army, and focus on the things that are ripping their army to shreds. In some ways I use them like I used Hammer Heads in 5th – to present my opponents with something scary to focus on, while the stuff that really huts them gets on with that job. As such, Riptides are great distraction units - which makes them very good at….

· Pressure. IMHO, Riptides should (usually) be used aggressively, throwing them forward to put pressure on your opponent – you can only ignore Riptides for so long before you MUST deal with them, and that’s because Riptides are pretty good …..

· Assault units. With Kroot no longer being an assault unit (they never really were TBH), Riptides are the only things in your Cadre that can even pretend to be good in assault. They can make a mess of vehicles with 3 Smash attacks on the charge, and give Terminators, or other elite infantry, pause for thought with 4 s6 AP2 attacks. However, it is as a Tar Pit that they really shine - with T6 a 2+ save and (maybe!) a 3+ invulnerable save and FNP, Riptides are pretty durable in assault (keep an Ethereal nearby, giving him Stubborn though..!). And finally, probably the most significant ……

· Mobility. Even without their 4d6 Nova Charged Thrust Move, Riptides are pretty speedy, and with the Nova Charged Thrust Move, they are downright fast! This makes them great for hit and run tactics (NB I don’t mean the Hit and Run USR, but rather classic Tau “fire and fade”), objective contesting and snatching Line Breaker.

And I haven’t even mentioned damage output! Don’t’ get me wrong, the damage a Riptide can put out is OK, it’s just not the main reason you take them in a Cadre.

But talking about damage output for a moment, some thoughts on the main guns. The problem with Riptides is that, by themselves, their main guns are not that great. The HBC will only kill 2 or three marines on average, and will barely scratch the paintwork of a wave serpent. If your opponent spreads out, the IA’s large blast will probably kill around the same once you allow for cover saves, even if it doesn’t scatter. However, where the main guns really shine is when you take the relevant upgrades, and support them with marker lights and/or a Commander with the appropriate support systems.

If the Ion accelerator picks up a few marker lights it becomes really scary – in a recent tournament I was able to pick up 8 marker lights allowing the Large Blast to ignore cover and almost guaranteeing it would not scatter. The resultant blast decimated a unit of Terminators and a squad of Grey Knight Strikers. If the Nova Charged Heavy Burst Cannon can pick up even 2 marker lights, and has an Earth Caste Pilot Array, it almost guarantees 12 hits. If it also has a Commander attached, giving it Tank Hunter, because it rends, and you’re rerolling 12 dice, looking for sixes, it shreds AV 12 vehicles and can also make AV13 and even AV14 sweat.

And don’t forget the secondary weapons – being able to double tap with the Fusion Blaster or the SMS can be useful.

So, in summary, the Riptide’s main battlefield role is not fire power – it’s utility, doing all the things that other elements of your Cadre struggle with, but properly supported, it’s fire power isn’t bad!



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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 7:23 pm 
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@ringo wrote:
I found this description:

Quote:
Battlefield Role

By itself the Riptide is not particularly “killy”. For the same points, both Broadsides and XV8’s can lay down more firepower. However, that’s not the point. Neither of them can bring the “package” that the Riptide brings. And that is the key to the Riptide’s success – what it brings to your Cadre is “utility” - you can do things with the Riptide you simply can not do with other elements of your Cadre.

For Example

· Durability. Riptides are pretty tough – even against low AP weapons (with a Nova Charged 3++), and particularly if they bring a stim injector. Only Broadsides compete in the toughness stakes, and then not very convincingly. As a result they make great …

· Fire Magnets. It takes a disciplined opponent to ignore the big scary monster that really isn’t doing that much damage to their army, and focus on the things that are ripping their army to shreds. In some ways I use them like I used Hammer Heads in 5th – to present my opponents with something scary to focus on, while the stuff that really huts them gets on with that job. As such, Riptides are great distraction units - which makes them very good at….

· Pressure. IMHO, Riptides should (usually) be used aggressively, throwing them forward to put pressure on your opponent – you can only ignore Riptides for so long before you MUST deal with them, and that’s because Riptides are pretty good …..

· Assault units. With Kroot no longer being an assault unit (they never really were TBH), Riptides are the only things in your Cadre that can even pretend to be good in assault. They can make a mess of vehicles with 3 Smash attacks on the charge, and give Terminators, or other elite infantry, pause for thought with 4 s6 AP2 attacks. However, it is as a Tar Pit that they really shine - with T6 a 2+ save and (maybe!) a 3+ invulnerable save and FNP, Riptides are pretty durable in assault (keep an Ethereal nearby, giving him Stubborn though..!). And finally, probably the most significant ……

· Mobility. Even without their 4d6 Nova Charged Thrust Move, Riptides are pretty speedy, and with the Nova Charged Thrust Move, they are downright fast! This makes them great for hit and run tactics (NB I don’t mean the Hit and Run USR, but rather classic Tau “fire and fade”), objective contesting and snatching Line Breaker.

And I haven’t even mentioned damage output! Don’t’ get me wrong, the damage a Riptide can put out is OK, it’s just not the main reason you take them in a Cadre.

But talking about damage output for a moment, some thoughts on the main guns. The problem with Riptides is that, by themselves, their main guns are not that great. The HBC will only kill 2 or three marines on average, and will barely scratch the paintwork of a wave serpent. If your opponent spreads out, the IA’s large blast will probably kill around the same once you allow for cover saves, even if it doesn’t scatter. However, where the main guns really shine is when you take the relevant upgrades, and support them with marker lights and/or a Commander with the appropriate support systems.

If the Ion accelerator picks up a few marker lights it becomes really scary – in a recent tournament I was able to pick up 8 marker lights allowing the Large Blast to ignore cover and almost guaranteeing it would not scatter. The resultant blast decimated a unit of Terminators and a squad of Grey Knight Strikers. If the Nova Charged Heavy Burst Cannon can pick up even 2 marker lights, and has an Earth Caste Pilot Array, it almost guarantees 12 hits. If it also has a Commander attached, giving it Tank Hunter, because it rends, and you’re rerolling 12 dice, looking for sixes, it shreds AV 12 vehicles and can also make AV13 and even AV14 sweat.

And don’t forget the secondary weapons – being able to double tap with the Fusion Blaster or the SMS can be useful.

So, in summary, the Riptide’s main battlefield role is not fire power – it’s utility, doing all the things that other elements of your Cadre struggle with, but properly supported, it’s fire power isn’t bad!



A


Hi!

Thanks for this. I will ponder on it and see what I can conjure up. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:06 am 
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Some additional overview info for the Riptide.

The suit has 2 options for a primary weapon, a Heavy Burst Cannon which is a high rate of fire infantry killing weapon, and the Ion Accelerator, which has a couple different modes but is basically light vehicle/heavy infantry killer.

It also has a secondary weapon system, either smart missile system, plasma rifles, or fusion blasters

Given the 2 different main guns, I would imagine we would need 2 different entries for it, much like the crisis suits have.

Its other big schtick is the ability to overcharge its nova reactor. This risks injuring the pilot but if it works he can choose to supercharge his main weapon, fire the secondary weapon twice, increase movement with his jetpack, or give himself an even better invulnerable save. No idea how you would handle something like this in Epic.

the suit also has an option to take special, missile armed shield drones. Don't know if that is worth dealing with at this scale or not.

The impression I have gotten is that these new, giant kits GW has been giving every faction (Dreadknight, riptide, Wraithknight, and even the Trygon) are sort of GW's way to reintroduce knights to the game, so I would imagine the riptide would be roughly on par with an imperial knight.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tau
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:42 am 
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So knighthood might be the way to go for these too then?

Only problem, as I see it, is the size available minis, most suitable proxies will be far smaller than their Imperial counterparts. But that might not be a showstopper?

Other than that, survivability seems to be key.

As for the nova reactor, This might be difficuklt to implement on this scale. In WH40K these guys are single monsterous creatures, here they will come in a detachment of 3 or 4 knights/Walkers. If we where to follow fluff and add som nova reactor effects, then those effects should problably have to apply for all stands in a detachment. So that you don't have one stand firing its secondary twice, another going AWOL gunning his jetpac for adidtional 30cm cuising into the sunset and the third shielding up? It would lead to excessive bookkeeping, or so i think...

Weapons wise, one could certainly do 2 setups, but would we then have 2 different battlefield roles? Is it perhaps not better to identify any holes in the current lits and tailor the Riptide to meet those requirements thus leaving us with one setup?

N


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