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Army List: Tyranids

 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tyranids
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:01 am 
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Probably either put the other cards back in or remove the ability to discard "unwanted" cards. It's my view that the other cards were there to balance out the 'good' cards, as having them meant that one would often get card(s) that were not immediately useful, but could be discarded in hopes of getting something better.

I'd be in favor of bringing the other cards back, as what is the point of getting cards at random if they are all going to be immediately useful? Also there are situations in which the other cards can be useful. Just because something is not usable in every situation all the time doesn't mean that it shouldn't be included.

Above was mentioned that being able to apply one card to a Brood of Bio-Titans is too powerful. I agree, as does 2nd edition Epic. It was specifically mentioned (in the Effects paragraph on page 67 of the Hive War book) that any Bio-Titan should be counted as a single model for purposes of applying cards. This should be reinstated.

That same paragraph also shows that the term 'Brood' was intended to refer to any single formation, as it specifically says that single models can be affected, and that a Hive Mind card applies to everything on a single Swarm card (with the exception of Bio-Titans mentioned above).

Thus with the need to reword things, perhaps:
"Any given Hive Mind card applies it's effects to all of the models in a single Formation, provided any listed restrictions apply. For example, some cards may only be used on Infantry Formations. The exception to this rule are Bio-Titans, which are always considered as their own Formation for the purpose of Hive Mind cards."

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tyranids
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:41 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Probably either put the other cards back in or remove the ability to discard "unwanted" cards. It's my view that the other cards were there to balance out the 'good' cards, as having them meant that one would often get card(s) that were not immediately useful, but could be discarded in hopes of getting something better.

I'd be in favor of bringing the other cards back, as what is the point of getting cards at random if they are all going to be immediately useful? Also there are situations in which the other cards can be useful. Just because something is not usable in every situation all the time doesn't mean that it shouldn't be included.

Above was mentioned that being able to apply one card to a Brood of Bio-Titans is too powerful. I agree, as does 2nd edition Epic. It was specifically mentioned (in the Effects paragraph on page 67 of the Hive War book) that any Bio-Titan should be counted as a single model for purposes of applying cards. This should be reinstated.

That same paragraph also shows that the term 'Brood' was intended to refer to any single formation, as it specifically says that single models can be affected, and that a Hive Mind card applies to everything on a single Swarm card (with the exception of Bio-Titans mentioned above).

Hi!

Good suggestions. :)

However I don't think the old cards can be added in due to the restructure of how cards are acquired and other changes. I will check this, but the restructure made those cards unnecessary. At least that is what i remember.

I do agree that too freely discarding cards makes it "too easy". This reminds me of the chaos card problems which were solved with stricter wording and clarifications.

Primarch

Thus with the need to reword things, perhaps:
"Any given Hive Mind card applies it's effects to all of the models in a single Formation, provided any listed restrictions apply. For example, some cards may only be used on Infantry Formations. The exception to this rule are Bio-Titans, which are always considered as their own Formation for the purpose of Hive Mind cards."

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tyranids
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:52 am 
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Er, I think you meant...

primarch wrote:
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Probably either put the other cards back in or remove the ability to discard "unwanted" cards. It's my view that the other cards were there to balance out the 'good' cards, as having them meant that one would often get card(s) that were not immediately useful, but could be discarded in hopes of getting something better.

I'd be in favor of bringing the other cards back, as what is the point of getting cards at random if they are all going to be immediately useful? Also there are situations in which the other cards can be useful. Just because something is not usable in every situation all the time doesn't mean that it shouldn't be included.

Above was mentioned that being able to apply one card to a Brood of Bio-Titans is too powerful. I agree, as does 2nd edition Epic. It was specifically mentioned (in the Effects paragraph on page 67 of the Hive War book) that any Bio-Titan should be counted as a single model for purposes of applying cards. This should be reinstated.

That same paragraph also shows that the term 'Brood' was intended to refer to any single formation, as it specifically says that single models can be affected, and that a Hive Mind card applies to everything on a single Swarm card (with the exception of Bio-Titans mentioned above).

Hi!

Good suggestions. :)

However I don't think the old cards can be added in due to the restructure of how cards are acquired and other changes. I will check this, but the restructure made those cards unnecessary. At least that is what i remember.

I do agree that too freely discarding cards makes it "too easy". This reminds me of the chaos card problems which were solved with stricter wording and clarifications.

Primarch

MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Thus with the need to reword things, perhaps:
"Any given Hive Mind card applies it's effects to all of the models in a single Formation, provided any listed restrictions apply. For example, some cards may only be used on Infantry Formations. The exception to this rule are Bio-Titans, which are always considered as their own Formation for the purpose of Hive Mind cards."


Note that I have not specifically looked through the old and new cards to compare what was removed, but above was mentioned "giving orders to formations on Instinctive Behavior" which would still apply. Any given card that has been rendered entirely useless by rule changes should not be used of course, but any others could still be used here and there. Still, adding other cards back in could be a space issue.

Even if the ability to discard is not removed, perhaps it should be restricted? Hard to say though.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tyranids
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:06 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Er, I think you meant...

primarch wrote:
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Probably either put the other cards back in or remove the ability to discard "unwanted" cards. It's my view that the other cards were there to balance out the 'good' cards, as having them meant that one would often get card(s) that were not immediately useful, but could be discarded in hopes of getting something better.

I'd be in favor of bringing the other cards back, as what is the point of getting cards at random if they are all going to be immediately useful? Also there are situations in which the other cards can be useful. Just because something is not usable in every situation all the time doesn't mean that it shouldn't be included.

Above was mentioned that being able to apply one card to a Brood of Bio-Titans is too powerful. I agree, as does 2nd edition Epic. It was specifically mentioned (in the Effects paragraph on page 67 of the Hive War book) that any Bio-Titan should be counted as a single model for purposes of applying cards. This should be reinstated.

That same paragraph also shows that the term 'Brood' was intended to refer to any single formation, as it specifically says that single models can be affected, and that a Hive Mind card applies to everything on a single Swarm card (with the exception of Bio-Titans mentioned above).

Hi!

Good suggestions. :)

However I don't think the old cards can be added in due to the restructure of how cards are acquired and other changes. I will check this, but the restructure made those cards unnecessary. At least that is what i remember.

I do agree that too freely discarding cards makes it "too easy". This reminds me of the chaos card problems which were solved with stricter wording and clarifications.

Primarch

MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Thus with the need to reword things, perhaps:
"Any given Hive Mind card applies it's effects to all of the models in a single Formation, provided any listed restrictions apply. For example, some cards may only be used on Infantry Formations. The exception to this rule are Bio-Titans, which are always considered as their own Formation for the purpose of Hive Mind cards."


Note that I have not specifically looked through the old and new cards to compare what was removed, but above was mentioned "giving orders to formations on Instinctive Behavior" which would still apply. Any given card that has been rendered entirely useless by rule changes should not be used of course, but any others could still be used here and there. Still, adding other cards back in could be a space issue.

Even if the ability to discard is not removed, perhaps it should be restricted? Hard to say though.


Hi!

It's been such a long time since I have looked at them critically myself, that I'm not sure either.

In any event once I start entering the errata, I will re-read the book and re-post any issues I find for general commentary. But I think some tweaking will definitely be in order.

On a side note Magnus, would you mind posting, in the form of a formula the way you are determining point costs?

I realize you do some tweaking beyond the pure end result, but what I want to do is is go through the army lists, calculate values and post the raw number on the forums for us to tweak and such.

I find that a coherent mathematical construct provided by you would help me achieve this quickly. :)

Thanks!

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tyranids
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:31 pm 
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Oh, you didn't mention it, but how do you (or other people) feel about how I've worded the suggested add to the Hive Mind cards rules?

Yes, I can repost the formula. I've made a few tweaks here and there so it's probably about time for a repost anyway. While it's been a while since I've seriously put effort into that, I'm getting back to it again. I'll post that to it's thread.

As a side thought, I have already gone through many of the factions and determined their calculated values. Would you prefer that I post those it that other thread (in the Alternate Rules sub-forum) or in the appropriate Faction sub-forum here?

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tyranids
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:19 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Oh, you didn't mention it, but how do you (or other people) feel about how I've worded the suggested add to the Hive Mind cards rules?

Yes, I can repost the formula. I've made a few tweaks here and there so it's probably about time for a repost anyway. While it's been a while since I've seriously put effort into that, I'm getting back to it again. I'll post that to it's thread.

As a side thought, I have already gone through many of the factions and determined their calculated values. Would you prefer that I post those it that other thread (in the Alternate Rules sub-forum) or in the appropriate Faction sub-forum here?


Hi!

I agree with the re-wording on the cards. I have a the recollection it was brought up during the making of gold, but as many other things it fell through the cracks.

When I start editing the Gold version I will get out my old cards, post a scan (or just the wording) and we can work from there.

Once your post the working formula I can get to producing units with raw numbers, then you (and others can tweak it to taste).

I would post the calculated in the respective amry sub forum, so as to make it easier to reference later.

Thanks!

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tyranids
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:05 am 
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Just now going through the Tyranids to give them Formula based points values, and noticed the description for Ripper Tentacles. This description has a few problems, all of which are in sub-ability 1.

First off, this entry references some check that Infantry and Vehicles have to make to be able to CC attack the Bio-Titan. To the best of my ability to find, there is no such rule for this check in the Tyranid pdf or in the core rules pdf. If there is such a rule, the ability should really reference where this rule can be found. I would also appreciate someone pointing me to the exact page of whichever pdf it is in.

Even if there was such a check, which there doesn't seem to be, the wording on the description of how it is modified is very, very confusing and backwards. The description says that Infantry and Vehicles gain a +1 modifier to their check. This wording means that when they roll a D6, they add one to the result. However, right after that the description says that the number they now have to roll against is one higher than what it would have been before. Wha? This is backwards. If the intent is that the number they have to roll versus is one point higher, then say that the difficulty is one point higher. Or say that they get a -1 modifier to their roll.

The first category should be called "Light targets", and the final sentence changed to "This ability affects Infantry, Light Artillery, Cavalry, Walker, Vehicle, and Heavy Artillery." The second ability would probably be called "Medium targets", and the third "Heavy targets", but either way what they affect is clear enough.

Personally, I would prefer to return to the description of the ability (for Light targets anyway) as presented in the Hive War book for SM2. It is much simpler and just prevents such units from stacking to gain bonuses to CC. However, I can see that many people might find that overpowered. If that is the case, then I suggest replacing the description for the first ability of Ripper Tentacles currently in the Tyranids pdf with the description for the Chaos Energy Whip, slightly modified to be biological rather than warp/technology based. This change would keep to the feel of what the current ability seems to be trying to do, and would use an existing mechanism to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tyranids
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:53 pm 
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Hi!

I'll look into this and the Tau question you mentioned in the other thread when I return on Tuesday.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tyranids
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:47 pm 
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primarch wrote:
Hi!

I'll look into this and the Tau question you mentioned in the other thread when I return on Tuesday.

Primarch


Have you had any progress on looking into these questions?

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tyranids
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:44 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
primarch wrote:
Hi!

I'll look into this and the Tau question you mentioned in the other thread when I return on Tuesday.

Primarch


Have you had any progress on looking into these questions?


Hi!

I am sitting down this weekend and taking the whole Saturday afternoon to deal with all things epic.

Mainly, the Gold corrections which have priority. I will look at that two issues you mentioned and post here with any thoughts. Once I post them and receive feedback from you on them, I will commence editing the original gold books.

Also, as far as platinum goes, I need to formulate some guidelines to push it forward. You have already done much of the major work with the points values, therefore what really needs to be done is the formation structure for all armies.

The Platinum project is odd in the sense that usually these projects start with rules changes/amendments rather than a points/formation overhaul. However this also means is will go a lot swifter since i see virtually no opposition to either the points formula (other than "tweaking") nor the idea of formation changes.

I'm optimistic in getting most of these major points done by years end.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tyranids
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:50 am 
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Sorry, didn't mean to pressure. I was just asking.

Agreed, fixing typos and other errors should take priority.

Hmm, guess I should update a thing...

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tyranids
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:56 pm 
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Hi!

I have spent some time reading the ripper tentacle description and have realized the error.

Ripper tentacles basically add a penalty to the number needed to avoid the titans "antipersonnel" weapons as per the rules in the core book page 47.

The wording is incorrect and does not reflect how the rules work.

My suggestion is to change this:

"When engaged by enemy troop stands and vehicles the bio-titan can use the Ripper Tentacles to help clear out these attackers. Any infantry or vehicle attacker assaulting the bio-titan has a +1 modifier to its chance of successfully assault the bio-titan for each undamaged ripper tentacle on the bio-titan. For example, a basic infantry stand assaulting a bio-titan with one ripper tentacle will need to roll a 7+ to engage the bio-titan instead of a 6+. Against a bio-titan with two ripper tentacles the infantry stand would need to roll an 8+. These modifiers apply to elite units and vehicles in the
same manner."

To this:

A bio-titan armed with ripper tentacles increases the difficultly for infantry and non super heavy vehicles to engage it in close combat. Each functioning ripper tentacle that the bio-titan is armed with increases the probability of a hit by 1. This means that versus non-elite infantry and vehicles the number needed to hit would be 2+ for one tentacle (standard to hit is 3+) or 1+ for two or more ripper tentacles (this means an automatic hit most cases). For elite units the value would be 3+ (standard value to hit is 4+) when armed with one ripper tentacle (2+ when armed with two ripper tentacles and 1+ when armed with two or more ripper tentacles). The element hit must make an unmodified armor save as per the standard rules in the core rule book (page 47).

Any suggestions on refining the wording (or shortening it) are welcome. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tyranids
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:34 pm 
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I had completely missed that rule. In my opinion, it needs to be referenced in the rules section about Close Combat, even if just saying: "Titans have special rules regarding Close Combat. See page 47 for details."

Your wording seems quite sufficient. One typo though. It should be "... and 1+ when armed with three or more..."

Now the only problem I have is how to put a value to that...

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tyranids
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:51 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I had completely missed that rule. In my opinion, it needs to be referenced in the rules section about Close Combat, even if just saying: "Titans have special rules regarding Close Combat. See page 47 for details."

Your wording seems quite sufficient. One typo though. It should be "... and 1+ when armed with three or more..."

Now the only problem I have is how to put a value to that...


Hi!

I'll see if I can place a cross reference in the close combat section to that rule when I begin editing.

As far as value for this skill, what value was it given when titan hulls were priced? The ripper tentacles would be an improvement on that value if it exists.

If not then, it should not be made too high since it serves a very narrow use. Most players won't try it unless they are using elite units. Even then its probably not a good idea versus a bio-titan armed with these.

Before I start editing Gold, I will construct a pdf with all the changes/corrections, which I will make available beforehand. Once this is done I will proceed to alter the original documents made on Indesign.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Tyranids
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:02 pm 
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In Gold, Tyranid Bio-Titan weapons fall into three cost bands:

25: Cluster Spines, Spore Pods, Stinger Salvo
50: Pyro-Acid Spray, Razor Claw
75: Bile Launcher, Bio-Cannon, Ripper Tentacles

Thus it is currently one of the most expensive weapons available. It deserves it. Remember, it has two functions that we were not discussing as well. I'll work something up.

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