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Problems with PD

 Post subject: Problems with PD
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:34 am 
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Hi I have seen some issues with the way PD is represented.

For example a baneblade has PD 10 = 6 hvy bolters + a hvy stubber or stormbolter
Rhino PD 1 with2 stormbolters

What about bikes they get to shoot bolters and attack bikes get to shoot hvy bolters yet have no PD
Commtemptor dreadnaught has no PD but gets to shoot heavy bolters
Valkyrie has hvy bolters but no PD
Eldar cobra has both PD and Shuriken Cannon shots.This is wrong
Leman Russ conqueror has 3 hvy bolters and 3PD This is wrong
Wraithlord doesn't have pd but gets Shuriken Cannon(= hvy bolter)

So do bikes walkers and aircraft get shots and no PD?
What to do with dreadnaughts that trade in lascannon for 6 bolters do they only get PD?
Or the landraider that trades in both lascannon for 6 bolters per side.

Could you not represent it in a simpler way?
Give all bolters/shurikens/stubbers/big shootas normal range shots which would be more tactically flexible.
This would replace PD values.
Allow all bolters/shurikens/stubbers/big shootas to shoot on defence like PD even if the vehicle charged.
They still would only shoot once per turn.

So that baneblade would get zero pd and 3 hvy bolter shots 25cm instead hitting on 5-6 and one stormbolter hitting on a 6 25cm range

This is to get your vehicles in sync with each other.

A landraider Prometheus has 2 quad hvy bolters so in current Netepic it cannot shoot and has a PD of 4
landraider Crusader has twin assault cannon and 2 hurricane bolters (6 bolters per side)
Netepic says this has a pd of 6 and can only fire the assault cannons? Seems odd

Thoughts feedback?

Ok ignore all of this I have a different idea.
Kiss = keep it simple stupid.

PD hits on 5+ (this avoids having to roll 2 dice to shoot at targets in cover)
Range 25cm ( more range because most pd consists of heavy bolters Range 36)
-1 to hit incoming charging units .


Last edited by SquatWarlord on Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with PD
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:32 pm 
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PD seems to work reasonably well to me at the moment. It seems to be a reasonable stab at simplifying many weapon profiles. Still, as you said, it is less accurate.

I had nothing to do with setting up that system and figuring out which models had what values. All of that was done years and years ago I would guess. Probably a couple of editions of W40K ago, possibly as early as 3rd or 4th as a guess, so comparing NetEpic Gold PD values to current W40K vehicle stats is a bad idea as they will not match up. As you noticed.

Thus any models converted from current W40K stats will probably have different PD values. This is expected.

On the other hand, I am reasonably sure that PD is not intended to represent Heavy Bolters at all. It should just be lighter weaponry. Most likely, this is due to weapon changes between the editions of W40K that the PD was set at and current.

Even if we did scrap PD and list each weapon, keep in mind that some simplification is still in order. This is necessary because otherwise each stand of Marines will get 5 Bolter shots each turn. This is way too much for this scale. As a stand of Marines will get only a single Bolter shot each turn, a Rhino cannot receive an attack equal to that of the Marine stand because the Rhino has only a single Bolter whereas the stand has five. Thus the Rhino's attack must have a lower range and a worse to-hit to represent fewer bolter rounds being fired.

Actually, it could work to list the weapon, and change PD into a Weapon Special Ability that allows the specified weapon to act like PD currently acts. Hmm, I'll have to consider that.

Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with PD
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:51 pm 
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Been away from NetEpic for a long time as been looking at Epic 40k and Armageddon, but to clarify a few things.
PD is a NetEpic invention, in the original 2nd ed rules small arms fire like bolters or shuriken catapults on vehicles were on the weapons profile as 15cm 6+ to hit weapons. They were pretty useless in a big game. It was decided in NetEpic to give them a bit of a boost by converting making them PD and allowing them to always first fire.
Now it seems like for some vehicles they didn't jus push the smaller weapons into PD but picked up some of their larger bretheren. So that could could do with some tweaking.

A few of your descriptions are off.
Rhinos don't carry heavy bolters, they have a storm bolter.
When the Baneblade first appeared it had no heavy bolters, just buckets of bolters. The weapon loaded out has changed over the years to carry heavys now.
The hurricane bolters on the land raider variant and other things are a back of 6 bolters, not heavy bolters.


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 Post subject: Re: Problems with PD
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:39 am 
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Combine this with better cover rules and you will never need to roll 2 dice to hit.
All cover -1 to hit.(cover gives fixed saves to be determined)

PD hits on 5+ (this avoids having to roll 2 dice to shoot at targets in cover)
Range 25cm ( more range because most pd consists of heavy bolters Range 36)
-1 to hit incoming charging units .


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 Post subject: Re: Problems with PD
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:18 am 
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Mattman wrote:
Been away from NetEpic for a long time as been looking at Epic 40k and Armageddon, but to clarify a few things.
PD is a NetEpic invention, in the original 2nd ed rules small arms fire like bolters or shuriken catapults on vehicles were on the weapons profile as 15cm 6+ to hit weapons. They were pretty useless in a big game. It was decided in NetEpic to give them a bit of a boost by converting making them PD and allowing them to always first fire.
Now it seems like for some vehicles they didn't jus push the smaller weapons into PD but picked up some of their larger bretheren. So that could could do with some tweaking.

A few of your descriptions are off.
Rhinos don't carry heavy bolters, they have a storm bolter.I got gun happy too many kinds of them argh
When the Baneblade first appeared it had no heavy bolters, just buckets of bolters. The weapon loaded out has changed over the years to carry heavys now.Is why we need to update
The hurricane bolters on the land raider variant and other things are a back of 6 bolters, not heavy bolters.
Still bolters of one kind or another


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 Post subject: Re: Problems with PD
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:02 am 
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Lets take a look at a Baneblade

Netepic lists it with 2 battlecannon 75cm 4+ -2 , 2 lascannon 75cm 5+ -1 PD 10

40K Has it with
1 Baneblade cannon 72 range
1 Autocannon 48 range
1 Demolisher cannon 24 range
2 lascannon 48 range (2 sponsons) You can get 4 sponsons I am counting it with 2
3 twin hvybolters (one hull 2 sponsons) range 36
1 stormbolter range 24 or hvy stubber range 36

So I would convert this to netepic like so
1 Baneblade cannon range 75cm hits 5+(3+ vrs infantry due to the template in 40k) save - 2
1 Autocannon 50cm range 5+ -1
1 Demolisher cannon 25cm range 5+(+1 to hit infantry) save -3 can destroy buildings
2 Lascannon 50cm range 5+ save -2
PD 4 25cm range hits on 5+(6 if not on ff) Yes there are less shots but each shot has a higher chance to hit and you don't need to roll 2 dice to hit
If you add 4 sponsons then PD would go up to 6 with 4 lascannon shots.


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 Post subject: Re: Problems with PD
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:10 am 
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Thus any models converted from current W40K stats will probably have different PD values. This is expected.

On the other hand, I am reasonably sure that PD is not intended to represent Heavy Bolters at all.

Almost all of the vehicles in Netepic as it stands do not use hvy bolters it has all been included into the PD. Only a few use them


Even if we did scrap PD and list each weapon, keep in mind that some simplification is still in order. This is necessary because otherwise each stand of Marines will get 5 Bolter shots each turn.

No this does not apply to infantry at all only vehicles and walkers.

This is way too much for this scale. As a stand of Marines will get only a single Bolter shot each turn, a Rhino cannot receive an attack equal to that of the Marine stand because the Rhino has only a single Bolter whereas the stand has five.

A rhino Has a maximum of 2 stormbolters each has 2 shots and can rapid fire 4 shots under half range = to 5 guys

This is like the lascannon argument
A lascannon can only hit one model a round (in 40k) yet can kill a stand of 5 models with one shot. Your logic before was that each turn in epic does not have a set time limit


Thus the Rhino's attack must have a lower range and a worse to-hit to represent fewer bolter rounds being fired
Stormbolters are 24inches same as a bolter


Actually, it could work to list the weapon, and change PD into a Weapon Special Ability that allows the specified weapon to act like PD currently acts. Hmm, I'll have to consider that.

All you have to do to make this work is allow any bolter/stubba/shuriken/hvyshoota's etc to always fire (vehicles and walkers only) even on charge moves hits on a 6 or if you are on first fire orders 5+


Last edited by SquatWarlord on Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with PD
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:25 am 
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So far I have been looking at Pd values this way
Every 2 stormbolters, heavy bolters, 4 bolters , shuriken etc gives one PD round up.
But this Pd will hit on a 5-6 not 6 as it is currently done.
A Baneblade will have 4PD like this

Current:
If you use a -1 to hit vrs charging units like you do now you have to roll a bunch of dice and get a 6 then roll again to get a 4+ to hit. Very clunky and only 15cm range.

Change it to 5+ and you will only have to roll one dice to hit . Up the range to 25cm. This is actually useful in the game to shoot things

If you are stuck on the current system then every bolter etc will give one PD 6+ to hit = Every stormbolter, heavy bolters, 2 bolters , shuriken etc gives one PD
A Baneblade will have 7 PD like this

If you do this small change and change the cover negative modifiers to hit then you will never have to roll 2 dice to hit anything again.


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 Post subject: Re: Problems with PD
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:24 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
Been away from NetEpic for a long time as been looking at Epic 40k and Armageddon, but to clarify a few things.
PD is a NetEpic invention, in the original 2nd ed rules small arms fire like bolters or shuriken catapults on vehicles were on the weapons profile as 15cm 6+ to hit weapons.

Actually that's from 1st edition. There's a huge number of good ideas that have been mined from the original release.

SquatWarlord, for the love of all that is holy start using the blasted quote tag, mate. Trying to make sense of your posts is an exercise in pure annoyance. I'd rather spend cycles cogitating on your important points, not wasting it on your rainbow silliness.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with PD
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:17 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Mattman wrote:
Been away from NetEpic for a long time as been looking at Epic 40k and Armageddon, but to clarify a few things.
PD is a NetEpic invention, in the original 2nd ed rules small arms fire like bolters or shuriken catapults on vehicles were on the weapons profile as 15cm 6+ to hit weapons.

Actually that's from 1st edition. There's a huge number of good ideas that have been mined from the original release.

SquatWarlord, for the love of all that is holy start using the blasted quote tag, mate. Trying to make sense of your posts is an exercise in pure annoyance. I'd rather spend cycles cogitating on your important points, not wasting it on your rainbow silliness.


Aw you are just upset that I picked the same color as your name!!!!
Fixed that post above
Seriously though I'm not much of a poster hell I don't even have a facebook
So sorry if things are messy I am just getting the hang of trying to assemble the jumble of thoughts in my head to this page.


Last edited by SquatWarlord on Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with PD
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:33 pm 
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SquatWarlord wrote:
Aw you are just upset that I picked the same color as your name!!!!
;D

But yeah I want to read and grok your input and it quickly becomes difficult to follow your part of the discussion. It's interesting stuff; we want to know more

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