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Buildings Rules for mega-structures

 Post subject: Buildings Rules for mega-structures
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:08 pm 
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One of the things that I'm finding increasing dissatisfaction with in my games are the buildings rules. The original rules were designed pretty much with the original Space Marine buildings in mind (the cardboard ones with the plastic rooftops) which are fine but when you start using much larger buildings there are a few problems; I have Battlefield Designs excellent range in mind since I own them but these problems apply equally to the Titan Legions flimsy cardboard efforts.

1) units in buildings - with the original rules you placed your infantry on top of the building, pointing out on a particular side which you declared to your opponent. Simple and effective. But once the buildings gets bigger, do units have to be on an edge or can they hide inside the building, most likely for objective sitting?

2) for the largest buildings one failed save seems too flimsy to bring the whole building down.

3) 5cm move anywhere rule; again, this is fine with smaller sized buildings but when you have buildings which are 20cm+ it becomes problematic.

4) with Epic being a more abstract system, is it fair or realistic to limit a unit to being able to fire out only as many troops as can fit along a building edge? For example, a building may only be wide enough to accommodate 3 stands firing out from one edge but surely a squad of 6 stands would all fire out of the same side by placing themselves on different floors of the building?

So here's what I suggest;

1) units must sit on a building edge unless they are making their way through the structure directly towards enemy forces. They may not deliberately camp to avoid enemy fire.

2) If there is insufficient room to place stands down one edge of the building, you can place as many stands on the building as it can hold and nominate all of those stands to be firing out of a particular edge as required.

3) when a unit expends 5cm to enter a building, it move up to 10cm into the building. Anything further will require additional movement cost as normal. If a unit ends its move inside the building, normal movement will be required the following turn to pass through the building.

4) units which end their move inside a building away from an edge may only be targeted from above by fliers, or barrages which either have a LOS to the unit on the rooftop or are guided by a spotter which has said LOS. Flame template weapons may also be used to attack units concealed within a building

For example; a Devastator unit on charge orders approaches a vast cathedral, using 12cm movement to arrive at the building, spends 5cm to move inside but can move 10cm into the structure but this does not take them to an edge; they use their remaining movement allowance to move 3cm further forward but still are short of a building edge. While away from the edge they are only vulnerable from attacks from fliers, barrage weapons which have a spotter that can see where the unit on the rooftops or flame-effect weapons. Next turn the Devastators use their advance order to move the remaining 7cm to a building edge and can fire / be targeted from/at the building edge as normal.

5) mega-structures can soak up more damage than standard buildings. To represent this, these buildings can survive 2 failed destroys buildings save. A third failed result will result in full collapse as normal. In addition, when such a building fails each of it's first 2 failed saves, all units inside must make a basic save to survive. Units without a save will do so on a roll of 6. Special Weapons like Warp and Vortex missiles will inflict D3 automatic destroys buildings failed saves (meaning a vortex missile can still take even a mega-structure down when it hits. In addiction, the vortex missile will inflict a further failed save for each turn it remains in the building. This damage should be applied after the roll for the vortex in the end phase.

If players think the Vortex D3 failed saves is too harsh, I would be willing to accept it inflicts at least one failed save.

Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Buildings Rules for mega-structures
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:38 am 
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Hi,

Having slept on it (and dreamed of blowing up big buildings) i've got some expanded thoughts on what i mentioned on the FB page.

First of all - I like these rules, and its definitely something that needs addressed.

I'm not a fan of using buildings for 'hiding' troops, or camping on objectives.
I think that troops in a building should be declared to be on a side for shooting out/being shot at and for range purposes.

However where our opinions might differ is regarding targeting troops in buildings (and probably forests too, but that's another matter that was covered previously) with barrage weapons.

To my mind it would seem that if enemy troops were spotted going in to a building, or have been shooting from another side of it, then as long as a spotter, or the artillery its self can see the building, it should be able to be targeted (placing a barrage in the center of building and scattering as normal) - i'm not sure how the rules currently read on this, but i'll have a look today.

as for mega-structures taking multiple hits, i'm broadly in favour of this, whether the simplest, most fair option would be to simply give them multiple 'wounds' or whether we open it up to a bit chance/fun and have a damage roll table for failed saves - regardless of the weapon type (barrage, vortex etc),

something like - on 1D6

1-3 - Building suffers minor structural damage +1 to next damage result
4-5 - Building suffers major damage, all occupants make 0TSM save, +1 to next damage result
6 - Building destroyed - usual rules apply

Anyhoo, i better get back to work!

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 Post subject: Re: Buildings Rules for mega-structures
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:43 am 
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The Bissler wrote:
these buildings can survive 2 failed destroys buildings save. A third failed result will result in full collapse as normal.


Call that a mega-structure?! stat me :spin
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 Post subject: Re: Buildings Rules for mega-structures
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:58 am 
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Hmm, i'd allow them an extra roll i guess... :P

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 Post subject: Re: Buildings Rules for mega-structures
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:15 pm 
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Bigger doesn't necessarily mean tougher. In any building, if you take out enough key support structures then the rest of it will fall. It's also possible for just a portion of a building to collapse leaving the rest reasonably intact. For those building models that have easily removed pieces, the simplest solution would be to designate each part as having it's own Structure Points and track those for each part. Models that don't have pieces could just have more SP to represent higher levels of damage absorption capability.

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 Post subject: Re: Buildings Rules for mega-structures
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:35 pm 
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Craigm999 wrote:
Hi,

Having slept on it (and dreamed of blowing up big buildings) i've got some expanded thoughts on what i mentioned on the FB page.

First of all - I like these rules, and its definitely something that needs addressed.

I'm not a fan of using buildings for 'hiding' troops, or camping on objectives.
I think that troops in a building should be declared to be on a side for shooting out/being shot at and for range purposes.

However where our opinions might differ is regarding targeting troops in buildings (and probably forests too, but that's another matter that was covered previously) with barrage weapons.

To my mind it would seem that if enemy troops were spotted going in to a building, or have been shooting from another side of it, then as long as a spotter, or the artillery its self can see the building, it should be able to be targeted (placing a barrage in the center of building and scattering as normal) - i'm not sure how the rules currently read on this, but i'll have a look today.

as for mega-structures taking multiple hits, i'm broadly in favour of this, whether the simplest, most fair option would be to simply give them multiple 'wounds' or whether we open it up to a bit chance/fun and have a damage roll table for failed saves - regardless of the weapon type (barrage, vortex etc),

something like - on 1D6

1-3 - Building suffers minor structural damage +1 to next damage result
4-5 - Building suffers major damage, all occupants make 0TSM save, +1 to next damage result
6 - Building destroyed - usual rules apply

Anyhoo, i better get back to work!


I'm not against spotters being used to call in barrages at all - my problem is more with the situation where the spotter can see the building but not the actual infantry stands. I'm fine with things like fliers attacking infantry in the middle of the building by firing from above and I think your idea of calling in a barrage which automatically is aimed at the centre of the building is a good one. I'm happy to run with that on Saturday!

I also really like the damage table, think it is an elegant solution! We'll also run with that for the large buildings, but obviously stick with the standard rules for smaller structures.

You mentioned the woods also, are you unhappy with the idea of not being able to barrage infantry inside woods?

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 Post subject: Re: Buildings Rules for mega-structures
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:38 pm 
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Apocolocyntosis wrote:
The Bissler wrote:
these buildings can survive 2 failed destroys buildings save. A third failed result will result in full collapse as normal.


Call that a mega-structure?! stat me :spin
Image


Ha! That's not a mega-structure, that's a small city! ;D

Do you ever plan on using them again? If so, they'd look really smart if you glued mirrored card on the inside, it creates a nice reflective glass effect.

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 Post subject: Re: Buildings Rules for mega-structures
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:45 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Bigger doesn't necessarily mean tougher. In any building, if you take out enough key support structures then the rest of it will fall. It's also possible for just a portion of a building to collapse leaving the rest reasonably intact. For those building models that have easily removed pieces, the simplest solution would be to designate each part as having it's own Structure Points and track those for each part. Models that don't have pieces could just have more SP to represent higher levels of damage absorption capability.


Yep, the problem is that the buildings don't break apart because I've glued them together. SP is a good idea but I'm quite partial to Craig's idea with the damage chart.

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 Post subject: Re: Buildings Rules for mega-structures
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:19 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
Do you ever plan on using them again? If so, they'd look really smart if you glued mirrored card on the inside, it creates a nice reflective glass effect.


I've used them for titan vs titan games a couple of times since the siege of terra (example bat rep: http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/ ... 84&t=27925). Mirror card is a really good idea though, will look into that, wasn't really satisfied with the small bits of white/yellow paper. Never played with any rules for destroying them, but I was toying with the idea of making a ruined one that could replace normal ones when shot.

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 Post subject: Re: Buildings Rules for mega-structures
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:23 pm 
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If you look closely at my building pic above you can see the mirrored card in action. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Buildings Rules for mega-structures
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:59 pm 
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I like the idea of the damage table that Craigm suggested. Looks like it would work really well.

Barrages can of course target any building they like, no matter whether there are troops inside or not. I guess the issue is where you can place the blast marker. I've always imagined that the barrage would hit the side of the building closest to the firing unit. After all, if you were attempting to destroy a building, I doubt you would aim at the roof. In the case of a mega structure especially. I would doubt that you could target a building side that you couldn't get an angle on from the firing units (e.g. on the far side of the building). The shells are unlikely to go over the building and then angle back to attack the troops firing from that side.

The other thing of course is that troops in a building have always been described as being spread through multiple floors, at windows and balconies etc. I like the idea that all the units in a multi-storeyed building should be able to fire from a single side, if that is what you wish. It never made sense to me that only the stands that could fit, could fire. Really the layout of figures on the roof is sort of arbitrary and shouldn't be used as the actual position of the models.

Perhaps the rule could be that barrages can only target a building side that one of the firing models can draw a line to. Any troops that have been nominated as firing from that side could be hit by the barrage, whether they are under the template or not. After all, they are all sticking their noses out the windows, taking pot shots at you. For truly mega structures, you might need to have several zones per side, as it wouldn't make sense for a barrage to hit every model along a 20-30cm or more length of wall.

I'm not sure on the flier rules, however if we assume that the placement of troops on the roof is only indicating holding capacity of the building, then you could also assume that the flier needs to target the side of the building from which the troops are firing.

As for moving within a building, I'm all for keeping that simple. I would say they move through it as normal. To stop camping in the centre, they must be given at least advanced orders and moved maximum distance until they get to the nominated building edge. If they are in the middle of a building, they shouldn't be able to be targeted by anyone, however the building can still be targeted and destroyed normally.

Well that turned into a bit of a general building rant, and may be way more complicated than things need to be. My two cents and all.

Cheers, Dave.

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 Post subject: Re: Buildings Rules for mega-structures
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:19 am 
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We tested out Craig's table when we played recently and it worked a treat! Really pleased with it!

I like your idea about as many stands being able to fire out one side. The only problem is when close combat occurs inside buildings, how would you deal with that?

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 Post subject: Re: Buildings Rules for mega-structures
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:22 am 
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I don't think anything would really need to change with regards to close combat. I had a look at how this is handled in NetEpic, and roof position seems like a good enough mechanism.

I can imagine that with a smaller building, troops would leave their position to defend against an assault coming from the rear even though they aren't touching that edge. If there is room for the attacker to move into the building, then the defenders were spread too thinly throughout the structure to prevent them gaining entry. In that case the combat moves inside, with the appropriate CAF modifiers being applied.

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