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Horus Heresy Army Cards

 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy Army Cards
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:19 am 
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Ok, so I've knocked together what I have done so far in a .PDF, I would really appreciate some feedback on the document if you would be so kind. it is probably full of errors so if you see any let me know. The points values are kinda estimated using NetEpic Values the Mastodon is a finger in the air value, they are all open for ammendment. The art work will be switched out at some point, but i have two armies to make up in this format :geek

Apologies for the link the page won't let me add a 14MB Doc :tut

Thanks as always.

Squiggle.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w2pfb14gxthmdjt/Night%20Lords%20Starter%20Force.pdf?dl=0


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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy Army Cards
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:50 am 
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Hi!

Awesome thanks!

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy Army Cards
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:25 pm 
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Looks great!


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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy Army Cards
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:26 pm 
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Though not Horus Heresy I was asked to create some rules based on the Crystal Warp Fortress by Infinity Engine http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Infinity-Engine

if you are wishing to have a look and offer some feedback or provide some play testing let me know PM me your email and i'll send you a copy.

We are keen to get this as thoroughly tested as possible.

Thanks in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy Army Cards
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:25 am 
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Rules for feedback please :)


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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy Army Cards
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:53 am 
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General:
_ Where am I going to find a three sided piece of paper to print this on? Perhaps condense down to two pages.
_ You use the term "Unit". Please replace all uses of this with either "Detachment" or "Model/Stand" as appropriate, as "Unit" is just too ambiguous.

First Page:
_ Should probably have a column for Special Abilities (could just be called "Special") just to be clear which go with which weapon. Doing this would save space on the third page.
_ Could also help to put "Titan" and "Floater" on this page. Perhaps like: "Greater Daemon; Titan; Floater" just under the name.

Second Page:
_ Tower 5-7: d3 stands where? In base contact? Being Transported? Somewhere else? Please specify.
_ Eye damage chart is backwards. That is, worse result is lower numbers. Also missing results for 5+.
_ Warp Crystal 6: Whee, that is powerful. Slight rewording could help. I'd put a period after "Template" then start new sentence. Also after "missile", which should be capitalized.

Third page:
_ Transport 10: Presumably, this is Infantry only. Or can it carry Walker, Cavalry, and/or Light Artillery as well? Those are also sometimes called "stands" so it might be good to specify.
_ What a pair we make: The last two sentences are confusing and/or redundant. Are Silver Towers able to link up with the Crystal Fortress? If so, this is very powerful. If not, replace reference to "Silver Tower" with "Crystal Warp Fortress". The last sentence should be removed entirely. This is because, as a Greater Daemon, it will already be firing on FF so stating the 'stable platform' bit is unnecessary.
_ Add just below "Chaos Cards": "Floater: The Crystal Warp Fortress follows the rules for Floaters."
_ The Twisting Gaze rules:
_ _ entry 2-3: Yowza, that is way too powerful. I would suggest limiting the effect to "Target Detachment and allied Detachments within 30cm must ..." Possibly a lower radius as that is powerful. Affecting the entire board is more than a bit overpowered.
_ Warp Flux Crystal rules
_ _ Warp Tide: So, if the foe takes losses and fails the Morale check, the Spawn do not turn and attack them? Very odd.
_ _ Warp Fire: Enemy moved over take 1D6 what? AD? Guessing that is short for Attack Dice, but that is not a commonly used abbreviation. Perhaps just say "attacks". Also, do you mean each enemy model/stand? Or each Detachment? Either way, the number of potential attacks in enormous. Might be good to specify that the base/model being passed over must be at least half covered by this model's base to be attacked, otherwise the Chaos player could just barely clip a model and claim that it gets attacked. On that note, exactly what IS the base size for this model?
_ AA and Ignores Cover. If these were listed on page 1 in a Special column, they would not need to be listed or described here. Unless you are changing how they work from the rules in the core book, in which case they should be renamed appropriately. Improved or Enhanced could be good prefixes.

I am currently poking at putting Formula cost to this, but clarification of some (or all) of the above points would be helpful.

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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy Army Cards
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:27 am 
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I have done the Points Formula cost for that set of stats, with a few assumptions. Primarily, I am limiting the Twisting Gaze result of 2-3 to 30cm. Also limiting the Transport to non-Bulky Infantry. This means that it cannot carry Terminators or Raptors, for example. Also that Silver Towers are not allowed to link into the Barrier.

Based on the Formula cost, I would recommend increasing the Gold cost that you have listed to 900 or more.

The Formula gives this model a cost of 2926.3 which would round to 2926.

Breakdown of that will follow at a later time.

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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy Army Cards
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:55 pm 
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General:
_ Where am I going to find a three sided piece of paper to print this on? Perhaps condense down to two pages.

It has a cover sheet for the first page, the doc is a combination of Army Card and datasheet
_ You use the term "Unit". Please replace all uses of this with either "Detachment" or "Model/Stand" as appropriate, as "Unit" is just too ambiguous.

Unit is in all the army books. I believe but will check

First Page:
_ Should probably have a column for Special Abilities (could just be called "Special") just to be clear which go with which weapon. Doing this would save space on the third page.

The * marry with those on the back to indicate what weapon has what rules, they are also titled in the weapon rules. I find it easy, may just be a user preference between me and you?

_ Could also help to put "Titan" and "Floater" on this page. Perhaps like: "Greater Daemon; Titan; Floater" just under the name.

Floater will be added

Second Page:
_ Tower 5-7: d3 stands where? In base contact? Being Transported? Somewhere else? Please specify.

Being transported

_ Eye damage chart is backwards. That is, worse result is lower numbers. Also missing results for 5+.
Yup 1-3 Damaged 5-6 destroyed
_ Warp Crystal 6: Whee, that is powerful. Slight rewording could help. I'd put a period after "Template" then start new sentence. Also after "missile", which should be capitalized.

Done

Third page:
_ Transport 10: Presumably, this is Infantry only. Or can it carry Walker, Cavalry, and/or Light Artillery as well? Those are also sometimes called "stands" so it might be good to specify.

Infantry only, changed

_ What a pair we make: The last two sentences are confusing and/or redundant. Are Silver Towers able to link up with the Crystal Fortress? If so, this is very powerful. If not, replace reference to "Silver Tower" with "Crystal Warp Fortress". The last sentence should be removed entirely. This is because, as a Greater Daemon, it will already be firing on FF so stating the 'stable platform' bit is unnecessary.

No link up with Silver Towers, changed last sentence removed

_ Add just below "Chaos Cards": "Floater: The Crystal Warp Fortress follows the rules for Floaters."

See above (added)

_ The Twisting Gaze rules:
_ _ entry 2-3: Yowza, that is way too powerful. I would suggest limiting the effect to "Target Detachment and allied Detachments within 30cm must ..." Possibly a lower radius as that is powerful. Affecting the entire board is more than a bit overpowered.

Forgot to put in the radius (10cm)

_ Warp Flux Crystal rules
_ _ Warp Tide: So, if the foe takes losses and fails the Morale check, the Spawn do not turn and attack them? Very odd.

Yup got it, they go onto fall back orders and immediately move away?

_ _ Warp Fire: Enemy moved over take 1D6 what? AD? Guessing that is short for Attack Dice, but that is not a commonly used abbreviation. Perhaps just say "attacks". Also, do you mean each enemy model/stand? Or each Detachment? Either way, the number of potential attacks in enormous. Might be good to specify that the base/model being passed over must be at least half covered by this model's base to be attacked, otherwise the Chaos player could just barely clip a model and claim that it gets attacked. On that note, exactly what IS the base size for this model?

AD = attacks, Detachments passed over not stands, I’ll have to measure the size of the base but yes it must fully cover at least 2 stands while moving to gain the 6 AD.

_ AA and Ignores Cover. If these were listed on page 1 in a Special column, they would not need to be listed or described here. Unless you are changing how they work from the rules in the core book, in which case they should be renamed appropriately. Improved or Enhanced could be good prefixes.

I wanted to include as many rules from the rule book to prevent referencing the rulebook in game to prevent pauses in game. Again just my preference


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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy Army Cards
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:56 pm 
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Points (900) look similar to where I have got too


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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy Army Cards
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:18 pm 
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Yeah, 10cm radius is much better for that effect, and much less expensive.

No, when a detachment fails their Morale check against Terror, or any other "at the beginning of Close Combat" effect, they do not immediately move away. They do take the -2 penalty to their CAF, but that is all. They only rout if that detachment was already on Fall Back orders when it failed the Morale check. See the rules for Morale on page 42 and also the "Broken units in Close Combat" optional rule on the same page.

There was a lengthy discussion some time ago while the edit run was being discussed for Gold about removing all uses of "Unit" from the rulebooks and replacing with "Detachment" and/or "Model/Stand" as appropriate, as a few people (me at the least) find "Unit" to be to ambiguous. As I recall, the majority of people in the discussion agreed that should be done, and Primarch said that he would do that. He then utterly failed to do that. Supposedly, he just forgot. In any event, I am still strongly in favor of avoiding ambiguous terminology whenever possible. Make the rules as clear as possible.

For Tower 3-7 I was assuming that "being transported" was the case, go good there.

Eye chart: 1-3 damaged, 5-6 destroyed. Slightly better, but what about 4? For the moment, I'm assuming that 4 is as per 1-3.

I am assuming that the base size is 6cm diameter, the same as 2nd edition Battle Titans. Per detachment moved over? Hmm, not sure how to value that. Guess I'll apply a "/2" for the moment.

Yeah, we do seem to have some different preferences. No worries.

Your use of asterisks to designate which abilities go to which weapons is inconsistent. Yes, the Wave does have ** next to it, but the Gaze does not have a * next to it. Nor does the Batteries have *** next to it, nor is that shown on the third page. Please make the usage consistent if that is your preferred method.

Oh, one other thing I noticed on the second page. The "Weapon" damage chart references a "Warp Bombard" but there is no such named weapon on the model. Presumably, this is the "Grief" mentioned on the first page.

With the adjustments listed above, the Formula cost for this model is reduced to 1919.06 which rounds to 1919. Still pretty hefty, but more manageable. Gold era cost could possibly come down to 800 or 850, but not sure.

As a design question, why make it a Greater Daemon? Tzeentch already has several such things, and this could work well enough without it, especially if it were changed from being a Titan to being a Praetorian. Then it could be a Special formation, rather than a Company as a Greater Daemon has to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Horus Heresy Army Cards
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:04 pm 
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Fair points. I,ll post an updated version that has all the errors corrected next week (family weekend). It was made a greater daemon to enable chaos cards to used on it. Durability would the cost be less if it was a praetorian? It was also in the brief I received, it contains lords of change. If it makes it more of an options. On the morale yup the spawn will act the same and attack regardless of the morale result.


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