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Points Formula Rules

 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:04 am 
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<snip>
Quote:
I put those two sets of three entries together into one for the formula because all entries on the terrain chart (see page 30 of the core rules) for those are the same color for all model types. This was done for simplicity, but re-separating them would really not be a problem. All it would do is to increase the amount subtracted to get the baseline. Personally, I see no useful point in separating them as they are all the same color for all models, but if other people would prefer them separated it can be modified.

Crater does not have an entry on the chart on page 30, so thus cannot be combined with, or separated from, anything.

You do have a good point about deathrollas, dozer blades, etc. They probably should have a modifier to that model's terrain access value.


I guess I am a bit ahead of myself. Let me put together my ideas for Terrain changes first, see how far that goes, then revisit this!

MM

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:05 am 
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Right, I may poke at your file a bit, but not for a while. I'm not much of a programmer (for example, I have no idea what VBA means), but I used to be able to make fairly good files back in Appleworks. Also, I'm actually using OpenOffice and not Excel, so a few things may work a little differently at my end. But we'll see, later.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 2:08 am 
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Hi!

If I recall (correct me if I'm wrong), the value of units with hit location templates is the collected value of all hit locations and that is the value for the "armor" part of the equation.

My observations are:

A. Not all hit locations are created equal.

The rear template in particular takes fewer hits if any during a standard game. Perhaps a steep discount, maybe half (or less of a full value frontal hit location.

The sides are more common, so perhaps 75% of a frontal location.

B. You don't need to penetrate or destroy all hit locations to eliminate a model.

This is a tricky one, because how do you calculate or valuate the highest yield hit locations (the ones most likely to yield VP) and assign the highest value to those while assigning less value to those which the probability of VP yield is less.

I think you could possibly use the damage tables to determine that, but that may be difficult, especially given the probability of changing them in the future.

I guess we could look at one set of values with calculated as you did the original ones, but with perhaps 50% and 75% value for rear and sides hit location templates and see what that looks like and another set of values where a locations value (regardless of side or rear) are weighted according to the possibility of yielding VP versus those with less likelihood of VP yield and compare those sets and see what that gets us.

The first alternative maybe the easiest, although I do dislike that just the numbers of hit locations wears heavily on the cost as its drawback.

The second maybe somewhat difficult to do, but I think we all know what the high yield hit locations are and those can be given a full cost (or even multiples of full cost) and the rest a lesser value.

Another possibility as I wrote this occurred to me. There are only several types of locations in each template (head, weapon, reactor etc.), why not assign a cost per "area" then either add or multiple all the hit location boxes of that are together for a cost per "area"?

For example if I i were to say the weapon hit location has a value of 25 points (all values are just examples) because weapon spots have a lower possibility of destroying the unit outright, I would then count the total number of weapon hit locations then multiply by the base value. So if it has 6 total the total for that spot is 150. In case of the head, which is a high yield location, let say base 100 points x 1 location (if only one exists), then that is 100 points and so on until all the distinct areas were done and totaled together.

I tend to ramble a bit when I do this types of conversations so feel free to ask, re-ask and explain anything that is not clear. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 6:58 am 
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At the present time I do the following to find the total Armor Save value for a model with a Hit Location template.
_ A. I count up how many hit location boxes have each save value. This is done on all four sides (Front, Back, Left, Right). To be more specific, how many have 1+, how many have 2+, etc.
_ B. Once I know how many of each there are, I multiply that number by the weight of each save (IE, 1+ is 6, 2+ is 5, etc). [The Imperator has different weights, as it's saves are on 2d6.]
_ C. Those numbers are added together. This sum is then divided by 4 (as each model has four sides) and then multiplied by the cost of each point of Armor Save (currently this number is 3). This gives the total Armor Save value for a Titan or Praetorian.

As a specific example, a baseline Warlord has 10 boxes with 1+, 31 boxes with 2+, and 3 boxes with 2+ saves.
Thus 10 * 6 = 60, 31 * 5 = 155, and 3 * 4 = 12; and 60 + 155 + 12 = 227; 227 / 4 = 56.75; 56.75 * 3 = 170.25
Thus the total Armor Save cost for a Warlord is currently 170.25.
[In the spreadsheet I use I have a cell that looks like: =(10*6+31*5+3*4)/4 and another cell that adds up the model cost that references that cell and multiplies it by 3.]

This level of detail would be fairly easy to automate. While I agree that the formula needs a bit more complexity, let's not go too far.
____

I was also thinking about applying a modifier of some level to side and rear locations. I was thinking perhaps 90% to Front locations, 80% for side, and 70% for Rear, but I had not considered adjusting for how lethal a particular location can be for the model. That is a great concept.

I had also not thought about ease of automating until just now.

I just looked at the Imperial Titans & Praetorians, and their locations seem to fall into two general categories, which can be summed up as:
_ Lethal: The maximum result (at the least) on this damage chart will directly destroy the model.
_ Not: No result on this damage chart will *directly* destroy the model. Most, if not all, of these include a "flashback" to a location that will destroy the model on a maximal result however.

Thus what I'm thinking at the moment is this.

_ Side:
Front locations will have full value based on Save weight (IE, 1+ is 6, 2+ is 5, etc). Side locations will be at weight minus 1 (IE, 1+ is 5, 2+ is 4, etc). Rear locations will be at weight -2 (1+ is 4, 2+ is 3, etc).
_ Lethality:
Lethal locations will have full value based on Save weight. Non-lethal locations will be at weight minus 1. Or should that be the other way around? Should Lethal locations cost more because they can destroy the model, or should Non-lethal ones cost more because they can soak up hits? Hmm, I'm not quite sure on that. What do you guys think?

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 11:16 am 
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I would look at the non lethal costing the full wieght of the save as they, as you said can take the hits, while the lethal locations would cost less due to the ability to destroy the titan outright.


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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 5:59 pm 
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IG Artillery

so looking through these changes, I have noticed a pretty substantial boost in Artillery prices.


Not having played IG in a while is Artillery really that effective?

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 7:09 pm 
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@madmagician:
While it does not directly answer the question you asked, my reasoning for making the base value for barrage & template weapons higher than direct fire weapons is their potential to affect multiple models. Thus IMO they should have a higher cost, and they (generally) do.

@SquiggleAmp:
Good logic there. That may be the way to go. I'll wait to hear from a couple more people before progressing though.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 8:12 pm 
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SquiggleAmp wrote:
I would look at the non lethal costing the full wieght of the save as they, as you said can take the hits, while the lethal locations would cost less due to the ability to destroy the titan outright.


Hi!

I agree with SquiggleAmp, this should be the way of doing it. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 8:15 pm 
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madmagician wrote:
IG Artillery

so looking through these changes, I have noticed a pretty substantial boost in Artillery prices.


Not having played IG in a while is Artillery really that effective?


The main reason that particular artillery company is so expensive is that it contains the "wonder unit", basilisks. They fire TWICE in one turn. Its always been "too good" and is one of the reasons it came out that high. Notice however that the other companies for artillery went DOWN in price (siege and rocket). This is not coincidence as those last two are barely used by most IG games I have played or witnessed. The basilisk is THAT good.

While we may tweak the formula a lot more, that particular artillery company will always be MUCH pricier than the others, that is the logical end point of having a unit that performs that well.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 8:17 pm 
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Hi!

I will discuss these thoughts in the other venues of discussions to gauge reactions. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 9:26 pm 
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And therein lies another huge benefit of this formula!

I see the logic there and it makes perfect sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2015 1:05 am 
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SquiggleAmp wrote:
I would look at the non lethal costing the full wieght of the save as they, as you said can take the hits, while the lethal locations would cost less due to the ability to destroy the titan outright.


I would need to see the actual difference it makes in practice, but I agree with the above.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2015 1:27 am 
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Not sure if you have looked over what an army list looks like with the formula in place, but wanted to give you a sample IG Fast attack 20Kish point Army I put together for reference.

The - numbers at the bottom of the points totals are there to remind me I have "Chaos Option Units"

the tldr is 20450 (-650) for NE:G and 18590 (-417) for Points Formula.


I did have one question on Deathstrikes....Is it 3x(missile cost)x3(units)?


Attachments:
Imperial Guard-v3.pdf [68.84 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2015 3:15 am 
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madmagician wrote:
Not sure if you have looked over what an army list looks like with the formula in place, but wanted to give you a sample IG Fast attack 20Kish point Army I put together for reference.

The - numbers at the bottom of the points totals are there to remind me I have "Chaos Option Units"

the tldr is 20450 (-650) for NE:G and 18590 (-417) for Points Formula.


I did have one question on Deathstrikes....Is it 3x(missile cost)x3(units)?


Hi!

The cost of three missiles are added for the cost of the death-strike detachment. Pick three add them up equals total cost.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2015 4:44 am 
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Interesting army list there, but there are a couple of errors.

First, you may not have more Special Formations than Company Formations. You selected 15 Companies and 18 Special. This is illegal.

Second, you have listed a Gorgon APC Support formation. The Adeptus Militaris pdf has no such formation. Oh, wait, you were looking at the "Imperial Guard book with errata" pdf. Right, that explains that. I have not been doing points for those new formations yet outside of the "expanded formations" posts that I've done. Those are not yet updated to Tweak3 though.

Primarch has it correct. With a Deathstrike formation, you are able to select any three missiles to comprise the detachment. It does not have to be three of the same type. Thus, each one has it's own cost. Choose the three you want for your detachment and add their costs to find the formation value.

Other than those little quibbles, that list looks great. That is more or less exactly what I've been hoping people would do to see if they like the formula's values.
____________

Well, we seem to have three people on here who think that non-lethal locations should be the more valuable. As I recall, most of those who posted a relevant opinion on Facebook also agreed, so I'll be looking into that avenue of pricing.

Facebook also came up with another point. That there should be an adjustment based on how easy it is to miss a given square. I'll be working that up as well.

All these new adjustments will probably take me a while to work up something useable, so don't expect anything on this in the immediate future.

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