Changing from a D6 system would be off putting for me. I still want Platinum to be the Epic that we have all grown up with and loved, the D6s, the stats, the orders, the core rules etc. I have no problem utilising 2D6s for certain things, hit templates maybe morale checks (since they see to be a sore point). Rolling handfuls of D6s is at the core of nearly every wargame, so it must be doing something right.

With regards to Command models, in old 2nd Ed, we didn't have the alternating activation system, so the problem with using them the burning activations is new to this version of Epic.
If we want to stop this abuse, then should we remove the Charge/FF option? OR force them to attach themselves to a detachment?

I have only experienced fliers a couple of times and they have been very good, so much so that the next game I loaded up on AA to make sure they didn't destroy me again.

A few of my own thoughts for Platinum.

Definitely need something to vary the games. A simple change to vary deployment zones would help make things less stale.

Updated building rules. They come in all shapes and sizes now, and occupancy based on roof size seems a bit old hat. Should we implement something a bit more structured now, occupancy based on size maybe?

Hi!

Scenarios are a long overdue addition to net epic. It is a question of thinking them through and make sure they are balanced.

I continue to read the old 1st edition ones and they look promising enough to modify and use in Platinum.

Buildings are a good issue to discuss. They got better than in stock SM2/TL, but still need some refining. I feel they are still somewhat "frail".

Primarch

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That's interesting! I find that buildings are now too powerful for hiding troops! There aren't that many Damages Or Destroys Buildings weapons so bringing them down is much more difficult. Of course, the weapons that can do usually have significant TSM...

But personally I'm happy with it as is.

Matt's point about only troops that fit on top of the building is a valid one although if we go down a more abstract route there would have to be limits. I dunno, while I agree about the problem, I think it may be something that players should maybe sort themselves by discussing the terrain pre-battle. The reason I say this is because terrain varies so much that it may make sense for one building to take only 2 stands while another could potentially take 10+...

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Changing the capacity of buildings away from "what the roof can hold" would necessitate making maps of the floor-plans of each floor of each and every building on the board, and having those maps off to the side of the main battle. This would be necessary to eliminate confusion over which squads can Close Combat other squads and which cannot. We would also have to discuss whether one can CC a squad on the floor directly above or below one's position, and various other interior terrain issues. While this could be done, and would increase the realism of the game, it would introduce a level of bookkeeping that many players may not want to deal with. At best, this should probably just be an option, not a basic rule.

Actually, 2nd edition did always have alternating activations for the Psychic and Combat phase, but not for the Movement Phase (according to the chart in my Titan Legions (Epic 2nd) rulebook) oddly enough.

I could be fine with requiring those Command models that come with a Company to be attached to one of the formations that come with said Company, but only for certain Factions. It is vitally important for Guard, Orks, and Tyranids (or other Factions that may have this limit) for their Command models to remain as they currently function, otherwise much of the challenge of keeping detachments within their radius will be lost. Actually, instituting such a rule would be penalizing those factions that do not have a limited Command radius, which seems like backward logic. Hmm, with that thought, I guess I'm opposed to the attaching of Command models.

I also don't like the idea of removing the auto Charge & FF, as doing so will make most such models identical or nearly identical to the troops they are leading. If it is identical, then what is the point of it being there at all? It needs something to differentiate it from normal troops. Ah, this is what we can do. Instead of saying that when the Command model(s) are destroyed the Morale is lowered by one point, we lower the baseline Morale score for such troops by one point, and give the Command models an ability that says that so long as this model is alive, the formations attached to it gain +1 to all Morale checks. This would also apply to all Support and Special Formations attached to that Company Formation that are not Fearless. This does mean that the base Morale value for all Space Marine (and other Factions where their Companies generally include Command models) formations would be lowered (worsened) by one point overall, but that could be a good thing as it would reduce their cost. This ability could replace the current definition for Command, but would not have to replace it. It having this would give the player more reason to protect such models. This new bonus should stack (IE be able to be applied at the same time) with the bonus from Inspirational. This way of doing things would also cause the Command models to act more like "real Command" as losing them affects the Morale of everything under it's command (IE in a formation under that Company).

TLDR version: Factions that include Command models in the majority of their Companies will have their Morale value worsened by 1 point. Command models of those factions gain an ability that reads something like: "All formations under the command of this model (IE in this Company or in a formation attached to this Company) gain +1 to all Morale checks. This bonus stacks with Inspirational. This bonus is lost when this model is removed from the battle."

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I was just throwing out ideas re the command stands.
I don't have any White Dwarfs on hand to look at battle reports, but I am sure they always moved the command units as part of or close to a detachment.
All the HQ units in the marine list already come with the Inspirational ability, so they already give out a +1 morale bonus to nearby troops. But evolving that into something else might work.
I also like the idea of everything in the formation structure (company, support, special) being subject to morale effects, it would mean you have to think a bit more about building your army.
I do wonder whether applying something akin to the command radius for all armies might work. Armies like marines or eldar, would have quite a large radius compared to others, but I don't think it is something to write off just yet.

Definitely needs some more thinking about, as I know I have been guilty of using HQ units as one of elite troops, and to burn activations. Maybe part of the solution is that they don't take an activation to use?

One thing I am planning on doing with the marine list is to remove most of the HQ special character options (chaplains, librarians, medics, etc) and incorporate them as upgrade options in the company formation. Also thinking that these characters have to be attached to a detachment from the company as you would expect them to deploy with a fighting force, rather than running around on their own.

I wasn't thinking of anything so abstract as building plans, more just labelling buildings as either small, medium, large, massive and then each size building can hold a number of stands. Each building label would be dependant on its size, so a building would be classed as small if it is smaller than 8cm in each dimension, a building would be medium if at least one dimension is greater than 8cm, but less than 15cm etc. Small buildings could then hold 6 stands, medium can hold 10 or whatever.

I've assumed all the way through this that we are pretty much talking about Marine HQs. When I've tested it out, I've played it that the HQ unit has to be activated at the same time as another formation within the company; however, this does NOT mean that the HQ unit has to maintain unit coherency with the formation. I can see why attaching HQ units to formations could be problematic for the likes of Orks and IG as Magnus pointed out. This fixes the activation problem but allows the HQS freedom to move as before. If some sort of Morale penalty is introduced this will stop players over committing their HQs.

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Hi,

Having just read through this thread, a few thing spring to mind.

1 Morale rules - Why not use the blast marker system from EA? Very simple, and models suppression as well as casualties. ( I know im a bloody heretic).

2 Buildings/Built up areas - How about just classing it as "area terrain". so you have a base, on that base you have a few model buildings. If troops are on the Built up area base, then they are in cover. You could have shanties as soft cover, concrete or similar as hard cover, then fortified buildings. This way you dont have to remember which building is which , how many troops can it hold etc. Simples?

3 Keep the D6.

4 Scenarios. Absolutely a must IMHO. I have done a little bit of work on some, but not enough to share really...

For what its worth, I like epic. But I like different parts of different rulesets. In SM1/2 and net epic I like the orders process, using order counters. In EA I like the Blastmarker mechanic. I dislike the restrictive lists in all the versions.

I will help out where I can, this seems like a great opportunity to get epic right, even if we have to think outside the box and radically change bits here and there, im sure the end result will be worth the effort.

Steve

Hi!

Magnus, I like that idea of lowering all morale values by one and then HQ's give a +1 bonus. This makes the HQ very valuable and thus worthy of "protecting it". If it is eliminated, then they lose the bonus. Its an elegant and simple solution.

Also, I would like to call attention to Bisslers point that when we say "activate HQ with another formation", we are not saying that coherency needs to be observed. The HQ unit can continue to move independently of the formations that it commands. In other words the HQ and formation are activated at the same time, but each can move and act independently of each other.

It's worth the clarification just in case it was thought that attaching the activations was saying the HQ unit was now a part of that formation. It is just a simple solution for the "HQ activation cheat".

Yorkie, we tried to introduce a blast marker related mechanic once, but it didn't work. Also not a lot of people liked the book keeping. If you have some innovative ideas regarding introducing it I'm all ears.

I think in the end the newer formation construction rules will solve a lot of issues seen in gold regarding command units or "odd formation". Mattman, you have a time frame to do this? What help you need from us?

As for buildings, I liked the 1st edition rules for them better. The net epic ones are very close to them, but are not exactly the same. Perhaps its worth reviewing them to see if people favor them.

Primarch

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Apologies Yorkie but I found the blast marker system to be one of the most tiresome aspects of the hell that is E:A. I don't know how E:A players have the patience to be dicking around with these things - just get on with the action!!!

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Hi!

I have requested the creation of a subforum for net epic Platinum.

Once it is created I will make the threads for each army list to start creating the new units that were summarized by some of our esteemed forum members.

Primarch

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Ah, interesting. I had definitely interpreted "attaching" as meaning it had to maintain coherency. Why wouldn't it? Allowing them to 'run free' just keeps most of the problems you stated you were having with them. The only thing addressed is 'eating' activations. I don't understand why you would propose changing how they work, but then intentionally not change the main thing you were complaining about. Very confusing. Even if the command model didn't have to maintain a 6cm coherency, perhaps 10cm or 25cm?


While we could give most Factions a form of Command radius, it is not appropriate for all of them. Eldar are a good example. It is very easy to build an entire Eldar army and not have a single Command model. It's even easier if you are not playing Craftworld Eldar. Giving Eldar any form of a Command radius would unnecessarily restrict an Eldar player's choices.


The Command models that I was referring to to receive the newly proposed ability are specifically those that come with a Company Formation. These do not already have the Inspirational ability. I apologize if I was not clear on which models would receive the new ability. It would NOT be added to Librarians, Medics, Forward Observers, Warlocks, etc. Adjusting Morale and the new ability would only apply to the following models & Factions:
. Adeptus Mechanicus: Tactical HQ, Command Leman Russ, Assault HQ.
. Chaos Marines: Chaos Champion, Command CSM Bike, Command Chaos Land Raider, Terminator HQ.
. Chaos Renegades: Aspiring Champion.
. Frateris Militia: Preacher.
. Imperial Guard: Tactical CHQ, Assault CHQ, Storm Trooper CHQ, Bike CHQ, Land Speeder CHQ, Rough Rider CHQ, Leman Russ CHQ, Predator CHQ, Vindicator CHQ, Vulture CHQ.
. Kroot: Shaper.
. Necron: Necron Lord, Destroyer Lord.
. Ork: Nobz.
. PDF: Tactical CHQ, Hive Gang Boss, Ragnarok CHQ, Sabre CHQ, Rough Rider CHQ.
. Sisters of Battle: Canoness, Seraphim Canoness, Command Rhino (with Rhino Company only), Punisher Canoness, Command Exorcist, Command Immolator, Command Vindicator.
. Space Marines: Marine HQ, Assault HQ, Terminator HQ, Command Land Raider, Command Marine Bike.
. Squat: Warlord, Hearthguard, Guildmaster.
. Tau: Shas'el, Command Hammerhead, Command Swordfish.

The few Factions (IE, army lists) not listed above (specifically: Eldar, Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, Titan Legions, Tyranid, & Tzeentch) would be the ones that do not have their Morale values adjusted as their Companies generally do not include a suitable Command model (in addition to other troops) &/or otherwise have their own restrictive Morale rules. Actually, we could easily move Orks from the above list into this second group as even though their Companies generally include Nobz, their command radius already limits the Nobz' behavior. Possibly even the Imperial Guard as well, for the same reason. Also, lowering the Morale value for Ork & Guard formations would make them very low indeed.

Yeah, the discussion has mostly used Marines as examples, but the changes would impact so many others as well that they must be considered. I cannot speak for others, but I have always been speaking about more than just Marines. Again, I should have specified.


As to the buildings, limiting the number of squads by size could be a good idea. Under that system, if a particular building was listed as being able to hold a certain number of squads, but it was impossible to have that many on the roof of the building, how would you go about representing that they were inside the building?


Something seems to be contributing to misunderstandings here. There are two types of Command models being discussed here, and certain issues only apply to one or the other. One type are the models that come with Companies alongside normal troops. The other type is found in it's own Special Formation. We really need different terms for the two, otherwise the confusion will continue. I suggest CHQ for those that come with a Company and SFC for those with a Special Formation.

As an example, the only models that I know of that have the Inspirational ability are SFC. The models that would receive the ability proposed earlier that gives all attached formations +1 Morale are CHQ. Thus there is no overlap. Similarly, the only Command models that I feel should be attached (IE, activate & have to maintain some form of coherency, even if out to 25cm) to a formation are CHQ. SFC should be able to roam freely, as they are a different formation.


On that note, I'm not sure how I feel about eliminating Medics, Librarians, etc as their own formations and working them directly into the Command squad for a Company. That seems to be trying to change the game into Epic 40K and that was a supremely disliked rule set, as far as I've ever seen. Still, I'll reserve judgement until you post what you are doing.

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CHQs are the issue as are Commissars for the IG. I never tried to fix anything else about the CHQs other than the activation problem which became a huge deal for my Evolution rules. The likes of Medics and so on still counted as an individual activation as did other "Special" units, no problem there.

As mentioned before, Morale Value modifier should help dissuade people charging their CHQs deep into enemy territory.

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Hi!

The part that was meant to curtail the issue of CHQ's acting independently without risk, was to include an idea like yours reducing the overall morale by one point and the CHQ giving +1 to morale as long as it survives.

Granted it doesn't actually curtail it. You could still do it. But there is now a significant risk in engaging in this behavior since the loss of the CHQ means an overall morale decrease.

While I would prefer trying to eliminate the behavior, I realize that any real solution would just complicate things. While I love to "overhaul" things, I realize that most prefer to retain the original core and just tweak things here and there.

I think your idea on overall morale and CHQ morale bonus and the idea of activation of the CHQ simultaneously activating with another formation (even though the CHQ doesn't need to observe coherency) is enough to mitigate the more egregious "abuse".

Also, as you pointed out there is a lot of confusion on what is meant or being directed to (thus lets use CHQ when we're talking about this). You are correct that it is mainly a CHQ (company HQ) issue and stuff like librarians and such don't need any changes.

As for Mattman's formations, I have several ideas on how to approach the attachment of special units like librarians and such. But I'll wait until he put it all down before detailing them.

Primarch

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Hi!

My feelings too. I think the morale penalty for losing the HQ will make players think twice on making "mad dashes" with CHQ units.

Primarch

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Hmm, good points. The Morale adjustment will probably be enough to curtail most of the odd usage of CHQ.

A point that I kind of raised above, but may have gotten lost, is: Do we feel that Orks and/or Guard should have their Morale adjusted & CHQs receive the new ability or are they restricted enough as they are? I could go either way on that one. What do you guys think?

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