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Marhaf Legion Net Epic Stats

 Post subject: Re: Marhaf Legion Net Epic Stats
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 12:30 am 
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Mattman wrote:
Obviously the points system will balance things out, but when creating units, just because they have multiples of a weapon, shouldn't always mean they have that many attack dice. Just something to consider as while working on the updated marines I am trying to limit the number of attack dice and instead improving to hit or save mod when there are multiple weapons. I always go back to the fact that the land raider has 4 las cannons but this is represented by just 2 AD, so maybe a normal single las cannon is only -1 tsm and being twin linked bumps it up to -2.

Any who, just some thoughts.


Good point Matt, I'll have a little think about this. The reason I gave the las cannon 2 dice was as much because I feel they should be able to fire at different targets as they are mounted on opposite sides of the vehicles.

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 Post subject: Re: Marhaf Legion Net Epic Stats
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 9:23 pm 
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Completely understand, pondering similar things with predators and other tanks, should the sponsons be treated separately with mediocre stats and have you roll more dice, or have better stats and roll less dice.


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 Post subject: Re: Marhaf Legion Net Epic Stats
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 9:35 pm 
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I'm kind of trying to make them good but relatively expensive. Pretty much you get 2 tanks when the Marine equivalent would have 3. I still may have made them too cheap though, only play testing will tell.

Now to get on the with Jannisaries and the Myrmidons stats...that should help me be able to field a decent army to fight a battle with. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Marhaf Legion Net Epic Stats
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 9:36 pm 
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Out of interest, has anyone read the fluff yet? I think it is very impressive, worth a look!

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 Post subject: Re: Marhaf Legion Net Epic Stats
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 10:25 pm 
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Where is it?

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 Post subject: Re: Marhaf Legion Net Epic Stats
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 10:34 pm 
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1st page but here you go...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/394 ... Marhaf.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Marhaf Legion Net Epic Stats
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 9:19 am 
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As I said, if the pointing system works, then in the long run it shouldn't make a difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Marhaf Legion Net Epic Stats
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 11:07 am 
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Note: there's been a very small update on the stats for the Encegon and Typhark tanks. A big thank you to Marios of Plasmablast who spotted that I'd not picked up on the weapons being different!

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 Post subject: Re: Marhaf Legion Net Epic Stats
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:56 pm 
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A couple of notes.

In the first post's description of the Active Camouflage upgrade, you say:
"Note that AC upgrades apply only to the unit for which they are bought. If there are several units of the same type bought in an army, each one would have to buy the upgrade to gain the benefits."

Are you talking about single models or formations? The word "unit" gets used for both, so it's a bit ambiguous. Admittedly, looking at the later posts it appears you do mean Formations, so you might want to replace the word "unit" with "Formation".

I also feel that the added ranges are a bit on the high side, though I'm not familiar with the source material. Perhaps 10cm and 25cm might be better than 20cm and 30cm respectively. The perspective I'm looking at this from as how weapon ranges tend to work in NetEpic. 20 and 30 are not standard increments, but 10 and 25 are.


Points system values for listed units: (just in case you are curious)

1) Typhark Medium Tank: Heavy Plasma Gun Variant:
Move 25cm: 5*2=10
Save 3+: 4*5=20
CAF +1: 4
HPG: 4*1*1*1.5*3*1.5=27
FotF (1.5 in weapon), AI: 2, Inorganic: 5
Total: 10+20+4+27+2+5=68 single model cost
BP: 100%
Morale: AI: +40%
Orders 25cm: -10%
Total: 78*1*1.4*0.9=171.36, rounds to 170 Formation cost.

With AC would be 88 (counting AC as equivalent to a non-Titan Holo Field), thus Formation cost would be 220 (rounded off).

2) Typhark Medium Tank: Plasma Gun & Missiles Variant
as above, except
Weapons:
PG: 4*1*0.7*1.5*2*1.5=12.6
M: 4*2*0.3*1*1*1.5=3.6
Single model: 57.2; Formation: 145
with AC: 77.2; 195

3) Phestorm Support Tank: Heavy Missiles Variant
Move: 8
Save: 20
CAF: 0
HM: 4*2*2*1.5*3*1.5=108
Single model: 143; Formation: 360
with AC: 163; 410

4) Phestorm Support Tank: Anti-Aircraft Variant
+AAG: 64 (presuming it has the AA quality, but it's not specifically listed)
Single model: 207; Formation: 520
with AC: 227; 570
Yikes. Perhaps remove or weaken the Heavy Missiles. Generally AA units do not have another primary weapon.

5) Phestorm Support Tank: E/W Warfare Variant
Move: 10
Save: 24
AI, Inorganic, HQ: 17
Single Model: 51; Formation: 65 (I'm giving this the Company discount, as this tank essentially IS their version of a Company. It should have a cost if using the Points System, and even if not IMHO.)
with AC: 71; 90

Should this model have the Command ability? It is their version of a Commander. Well, I guess it's more like a SHQ really. Perhaps not.

Also, saying "E/W Warfare" is redundant, as the W in E/W stands for 'Warfare'.

6) Leehark Hoverjet
Move: 24 (2*6*2) Skimmer
Save: 20
CAF: 12
TM: 72, AC: 24, E/W: 8.4
SA: 7
Single Model: 167.4; Formation: 420
with AC: 187.4; 470

7) Encegon Heavy Tank with Twin Plasma Guns
Move: 8
Save: 24
CAF: 8
PG: 25.2, AC: 24
SA: 7
Single Model: 96.2; Formation: 240
with AC: 116.2; 295

8 ) Encegon Heavy Tank with Heavy Plasma Gun & Missiles
Move: 8
Save: 24
CAF: 8
HPG: 27, AC: 24, M: 3.6
SA: 7
Single Model: 101.6; Formation: 255
with AC: 121.6; 305

9) Maarghast Heavy Assault Tank with Twin Heavy Plasma Gun
Move: 18 (6*3) Super Heavy
Save: 36 (4*6*1.5) SH
CAF: 16
HPG: 54, AC: 24, M: 7.2
SA: 7
Single Model: 162.2; Formation: 205
with AC: 182.2; 230

10) Maarghast Heavy Assault Tank with Plasma Annihilator
as above, except
PA: 48, M: 10.8
Single Model: 159.8; Formation: 200
with AC: 179.8; 225

11) DF-X03 Bikes.
Move: 14 (2*7)
CAF: 16
SA: 7
Single Model/Stand: 37; Formation: 185
with AC: 57; 285

An additional note. Most of the models appear to have Turrets, but none of your stats listed Turrets. I left that modifier off since it was not listed. Should any of the tanks have Turret?

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 Post subject: Re: Marhaf Legion Net Epic Stats
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 9:19 am 
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Hi Magnus,

Thanks for several excellent spots in errors in my text and brilliant work on the costings!

You're completely correct about the formations point and I've reworded the original posts accordingly.

About the AC ranges. This is an aspect of the Marhaf technology that diverges from DaR's excellent background work and is a personal addition I wanted to add to the project for Net Epic. I just felt that an A.I. force would have some sort of distinguishing special technology that isn't available to other forces and therefore offer something a little more unique to the gaming experience. I had considered using the Tau markerlight technology but discounted it in favour of something completely new. It took a while before I came up with the Predator (film)inspired idea of Active Camouflage. So that's the background to why it exists at all.

As for why have I opted for these ranges, it's to do with the Marhaf once again using their technology to get the edge over their opponents whose battle tactics they have studied. You'll have noticed that much of the Marhaf weaponry has range of 50cm. This means that they have to move in closer to enemy formations than is otherwise desirable. The 30cm rule is to allow them to sit within 50cm of an enemy unit and fire while just remaining outside of their enemy's 75cm range (eg Land Raiders & Falcon Tanks). It's only 5cm in it so there may be a few close calls... The 20cm is an arbitrary figure I came up with, and I'm open to changing that, either downgrading to 15cm or even 10cm. The not being able to fire at units who do not move or fire is based on the Scout (or is it Stealth?) ability. I'm happy to debate these rules with the community and change them accordingly depending on how the majority feels about it.

The Phestorm E/W Warfare tank: It's an entirely valid point about the name but I'm not for changing it only because this is what is written on the Plasmablast shop page and I don't want anyone confused if they go online to buy units as a result of descriptions from this project. I had thought about the Command ability but discounted it for the reason that the tank has no weaponry so there is no benefit in gaining the charge / first fire rule. Also, I felt that if Active Camouflage was employed, I didn't want it counting as if it is on FF when the vehicle was charging. The HQ ability offers it protection enough I reckon... I'm not convinced about charging for these however. They have no weapons and they are an obvious weakness for this force as their destruction means that formations will revert to instinctive orders, out of control for the player. This makes them a massive target for enemies, so my feeling is that they are not something that the Marhaf player gains any benefit from using, if anything they should be a massive headache for him. It's the big downside to an otherwise (hopefully) excellent force.

The Phestorm Anti-Aircraft variant: Ouch! That is expensive! The problem here is that the missile turrets look the same on both variants so I found it hard to justify making the AA version have different armament in terms of the missiles. I'm open to discussion on this also, what does everyone else think? You're right about he AA ability, I've fixed that.

Lastly, yes, the Turret ability has been omitted. Again, I've corrected that.

Thanks again for taking the time to read over this, your work has, as your name suggests, been illuminating! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Marhaf Legion Net Epic Stats
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 6:51 pm 
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Well, with that explanation, the ranges you chose make logical sense.

As the E/W Warfare variant, I suppose it's possible that the E/W means something other than "Electronic Warfare", but I couldn't guess what. Keeping it the same so people can locate it easier makes sense though. As to a points value, reverse engineering a cost for NetEpic Gold would make the cost about 20 or 25 (without AC, perhaps 30 or 35 with), so the cost would be minimal compared to the rest of the formations. Still, it is generally assumed that the Command models in a Company Formation are free, so I guess having them as free for NetEpic Gold should be fine. Yes, it having the Command ability could be confusing. Good catch.

Actually, the way you have tailored the "Instinctive behaviors" to the units, I cannot see any serious downside to just letting them go on those. Thus I did not include the discount for "non-standard Instinctive". Frankly, I'm thinking that this modifier may need reconsidering in general (for the base Points System anyway).

Something else to consider for this army is that they have no Infantry so far. This means that they cannot capture Objectives, if I recall those rules correctly. You may want to address this in one way or another.

Hmm, turrets have been added. That will adjust the points costs a bit. I'll adjust those later.

Perhaps instead of adding AA Autocannon (or whatever it was) to that model, just change the Missiles themselves from being barrages into being AA. This would hold true to the model and would reduce their cost.

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 Post subject: Re: Marhaf Legion Net Epic Stats
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 12:50 am 
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More good points Magnus, cheers for this!

I have considered that the instinctive behaviours / programming maybe are too generous but from memory I based these on the robot programs for Imperial Robots; it's my thinking that the A.I.s would have programming at least as good for their vehicles. I could be wrong about how closely I based the on the robotic program's although I know I definitely looked at them before I decided on these. Pretty much they are search and destroy units, the worst that could happen is that the nearest target may drag them off the course you would want them to go, especially if there was an objective nearby.

I think your AA idea is excellent and I'll go back and adjust the stats accordingly, although I may still make the AA gun slightly more powerful than the non-AA just to reflect the gun weapons firing in tandem with the rockets.

And you're absolutely right about the infantry, they are next on my to-do list. There are the Jannisaries which are essentially cyborg zombies which the Marhaf have brutalised with their technology and Myrmidons which are a bit like the Kroot for Tau, willing allies of the Marhaf. I'm waiting on some clarification from DaR as to what exactly this species are before pressing on with the stats. I'd like it if we could agree on minis before designing stats, though if you click on his background link you will see that he has already done stats for the Myrmidons for E:A.

I'll try and deal with the Jannisaries tomorrow as I know I'll be using these for the minis (these are the best 6mm cyborg minis that I've seen anywhere); http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/webstore_DiD_CSS.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Marhaf Legion Net Epic Stats
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 1:02 am 
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Updated:

Phestorm Heavy Missiles Variant TSM reduced from -2 to -1.

Phestorm AA Variant has no additional AA guns, just Heavy Missiles which do have a TSM of -2 to reflect the fact that the AA guns fire in tandem with the Heavy Missiles giving them an additional punch.

Maarghast Heavy Assault Tank with Plasma Annihilator. The range of the P.A. has been increased to 75cm. This was always meant to be the case as the Active Camouflage was always intended to allow the Maarghast to be able to duke it out with Shadowswords. This is what I get for copying & pasting to save time!

Really sorry Magnus, I know this creates more work for you that you could do without. :-\

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 Post subject: Re: Marhaf Legion Net Epic Stats
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 9:53 am 
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Janissary Commander

Move:.......Save:........CAF:........Weapons:..................Range:...Attack Dice:..To Hit Roll:.....TSM:
10cm..........5+...........+5.......Various Bionics..............35cm..........1................4+..............-2

Notes: HQ, Command. Units charged by CyberShadow Leaders must make morale checks immediately.

Cost: 100 points for unit of 2
Break Point: 2
VPs: 1

With AC Upgrade:
Cost: 150 points for unit of 2
Break Point: 2

Suggested Miniatures: Cybershadow's Leaders. http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/webstore_DiD_CSS.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Marhaf Legion Net Epic Stats
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 10:00 am 
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Janissaries

Move:.......Save:........CAF:........Weapons:..................Range:...Attack Dice:..To Hit Roll:.....TSM:
10cm..........5+...........0.........Various Bionics..............35cm..........1................4+..............-1

Notes: Units charged by Janissares must make morale checks immediately.

Cost: 75 points for unit of 2
Break Point: 2
VPs: 1

With AC Upgrade:
Cost: 125 points for unit of 2
Break Point: 2

Suggested Miniatures: Cybershadow's Infantry Century http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/webstore_DiD_CSS.htm

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Last edited by The Bissler on Fri May 30, 2014 10:14 am, edited 2 times in total.

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