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[NE Plat] New Formation Arrangement For Building Armies

 Post subject: [NE Plat] New Formation Arrangement For Building Armies
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:31 am 
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As many of you will be well aware, several of the members of this forum have started thinking about (and discussing) changes, improvements and fixes that we think will help improve NetEpic. Under Primarchs guidance, these will hopefully make their way into Platinum Edition of the rules.

Before we delve into the depths of the post I would like to make one point, we should all get into the habit of referring to the various groups of units as formations rather than cards (or another word if people can come up with a better term). Although some people still use the old cards in their games, NetEpic has moved away from them and many of the army lists have units which do not have actual “cards”. Therefore, from this point forward, I will be referring to the groups of units as formations. So we will have Company Formations, Support Formations and Special Formations.

Myself and Primarch have had a few email discussions about one aspect that I am proposing, and that is how we build armies to play the game. This all came about after reviewing the current army lists and I noticed how the formations (cards) for some armies are 20 years old and do not truly represent how those formations are structured, and have been for some time now. Along with that was the issue that transports and how they are included are not simple to swap out or add to formations (if any of you followed the discussion on Guard post you will have seen me and Primarch talking about having to have different sized transport formations for the different sized troop formations).

So with that in mind, I have been looking at the army list side of things and what can be done to improve the system. I have started with Space Marines as they are what I would call the “core” army and along with Guard is the one that has the most specific structure to it these days. When I have bottomed them out, I will start looking at the others (likelihood is that most of the others will be easier to do).

I had several goals in mind when looking at a new system:

1) Standard formations should be in-line with those as described in the current fluff. So for marines that means following the Codex Astartes (to some degree) and the sorts of things we have seen coming out in Apocalypse. But, to not alienate those players who have armies built around the old structure; allow them a way of using those old structures.

2) A degree of flexibility to be applied to formations. This mainly applies to tanks as the number and type are not set in stone.

By doing these, we also open up the game to the Armageddon players who construct their armies based around the current fluff and no body can deny that attracting players into the game is a bad thing.

3) Multiple transport options included as part of the formation. By including the option to take transports directly as part of the formation we can get rid of the “Footsloggers” and “Standard Transport” rules and also simplify how other transports can be used instead of the normal ones.

4) All possible units that are in the 40k world to be included. More options means more fun. Just because there isn't a model for it doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to scratch build something or proxy with another appropriate model. But again, if you only want to play with the older stuff, then there is nothing stopping you from doing it.

So onto what I am proposing. Taking a look at the standard Battle Company, this is how I think things could look.

Image

So firstly, the detachments have been adjusted to follow the newer style of 6 tactical squads, 2 assault squads and 2 devastator for a company. But, as mentioned, old formations should still be catered for, so there is an option to swap some models about.

Jumping to point 3, by removing all the normal transports from the formation to start with it opens up a more simple system of mounting the troops, we don’t have to worry about making multiple support formations of different sizes to cope with formations of troops with different numbers. It also means players can make interesting mixtures of formations, by mixing and matching transports as they see fit. Again, for those old school players, it is still easy to make up the formation as it used to be.

Point 4. In the example above, I have included Damocles and Storm Eagle. Both are new models in 40k, so players should have the option of using them (well technically old models since in the fluff they appeared in the Heresy period, but are still available for modern 40k armies). The other slight change is to allow drop pods in smaller numbers; so again, players have the option of doing cool stuff with their formations.

Obviously detachment coherency would have to be maintained, you wouldn't be able to mount 2 assault stands in a drop pod and the other 2 in a rhino.

The points are just place holders at the moment, but the points cost of the formation would be the total points of everything. You would then work out the break point from the total numbers of models and finally the victory points.

The same rules would apply to the smaller support and special formations. So a support of a devastator detachment would look like this.

Image

And a vehicle squadron might look like:

Image

Old players still have the option of fielding the traditional 3 tank formations and Armageddon players can use their 4 tank formations and both have the option of mixing and matching tanks if they want to.

Obviously this sort of system would require that the player works out the total value of the formation and then the related Victory and Break Points, but that shouldn't be difficult. It isn't as if we don't utilise something similar already when we build titans.

Thoughts?

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: [NE Plat] New Formation Arrangement For Building Armies
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:47 am 
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Seems good to me! I will try to refer to "cards" as formations but make no promises! It's hard to break the habit of a lifetime!

Are you thinking of repeating the spreadsheet project for the new army lists?

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 Post subject: Re: [NE Plat] New Formation Arrangement For Building Armies
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:04 am 
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I still say cards on the odd occasion ::) just think it is a good habit to get out of, especially when writing about them in army lists.

Spreadsheet project?


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 Post subject: Re: [NE Plat] New Formation Arrangement For Building Armies
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:17 am 
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This looks really nifty. Very flexible and inclusive. Well done so far.

I've been trying to only use "formation" instead of "card" and I think I've been doing fairly well, but others would have to be the judge of that.

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 Post subject: Re: [NE Plat] New Formation Arrangement For Building Armies
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:40 am 
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Mattman wrote:
I still say cards on the odd occasion ::) just think it is a good habit to get out of, especially when writing about them in army lists.

Spreadsheet project?


Yep, a few months ago all the army stats were put on to excel spreadsheets, it would be good to see all the new army building rules put on the relevant documents.

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 Post subject: Re: [NE Plat] New Formation Arrangement For Building Armies
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:22 pm 
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Ah yes. I guess everything will need to be in spreadsheets while we tweak and iron out the kinks.

I like to think we get the best of both worlds by using a system like this. We maintain the system of formations structured together in the Special/Company/Support system, we still sort of have "cards" for those that like them and force construction is more flexible like what you see in Armageddon and 40k.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: [NE Plat] New Formation Arrangement For Building Armies
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:38 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
Yep, a few months ago all the army stats were put on to excel spreadsheets, it would be good to see all the new army building rules put on the relevant documents.


It would probably be best put them on new, separate sheets, as the new structures are for Platinum and not to replace those for Gold. They could probably be used for Gold, but as Primarch keeps saying, all we are changing for Gold is errata.

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 Post subject: Re: [NE Plat] New Formation Arrangement For Building Armies
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:44 pm 
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Hi!

I missed the new thread... :-[

Once the points system is done, we could make spreadsheets for Platinum.

As for Gold, errata takes priority, the spreadsheets I'm afraid are very low in the queue.

Now that Mattman, has put up his formation ideas, hopefully the final touches on the formula can be made. :)

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 Post subject: Re: [NE Plat] New Formation Arrangement For Building Armies
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:16 pm 
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As an alternative layout.

Image

Just trying to trim the amount of information down. Thinking it would be better if the information related to the transports is put in a separate table rather than repeating it for each formation, so just want to include the pts.

The other thing you will notice is an option for the Assault Marines.
One of the first things anyone ever says to me when they look at marines in NetEpic is why can assault marines ride around in transports, to which I have to say it is a legacy issue from the days of Rogue Trader/2nd Ed 40k when they could, but that doesn't hold true after 20 years.
So to try and make them useful for both old and new players (and it is something you can do in the current 40k marine armies) is to have the option of having them with jump packs (and can't be mounted in vehicles) or without (and still be mounted). This is the closest I think I can get to appeasing both sides.
I will post the actual stats at a later date, but it will entail a slight change to assault marines. Their move will be increased so they can move about on a battlefield quicker without using rhinos and the Jump Pack rules will have an additional caveat that troops can't fit in normal transports.

Thoughts?

Matt


Last edited by Mattman on Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [NE Plat] New Formation Arrangement For Building Armies
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:34 pm 
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Looking good might be worth adding transport Land Raiders as an option to the Battle Company. Good luck with it.

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 Post subject: Re: [NE Plat] New Formation Arrangement For Building Armies
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:57 pm 
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Only Terminators/Centurions can take Land Raiders as transports. All other troops (including vets) are restricted to the rhino based ones or drop pods. Though it is something worth considering.


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 Post subject: Re: [NE Plat] New Formation Arrangement For Building Armies
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:19 pm 
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Once I have got a rough draft of the marine and ork lists to go with the new points from Magnus, I plan on calling on your services Dave for a bit of play testing.

On an aside, I also discovered that I can link to images from the public area of my drop box and they show up on here. Much easier that using Photobucket. ;D

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: [NE Plat] New Formation Arrangement For Building Armies
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:50 am 
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Interesting idea there for the Assault troops. As far as I can tell, the only change to their stats would be the removal of their Jump Packs ability, and possibly lowering their Move to 10cm. The vast majority of non-Jump capable Infantry have Moves of 10cm, but there are a few exceptions.

An Assault Marine 'squad' (IE, one stand) costs 42.5 including Morale adjustment.
Removing the Jump ability while leaving Move at 15 reduces the cost to 37.2.
Reducing the Move to 10cm reduces the cost to 33.6.

Of course, the above is assuming we don't change the value for Jump as such troops would no longer be able to use transports. That's probably only a minor issue though.

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 Post subject: Re: [NE Plat] New Formation Arrangement For Building Armies
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:21 am 
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That's pretty much it. If you take them without Jump Packs they drop their move to 10cm and lose the Jump Pack ability. The ones with Jump Packs will have a new move rate of between 20-30cm, though I haven't fully decided on a value yet.

This would entail a small change to the Jump Pack rules (well for marines anyway) that they can't be mounted in tanks (thunderhawks and the like are still fine). But the loss of using transports and the improved movement value might just cancel each other out points wise.


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 Post subject: Re: [NE Plat] New Formation Arrangement For Building Armies
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:15 am 
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Sounds good although I'm down in Suffolk for the foreseeable future. I've got a new job and disturbingly enough it's as a Supervisor rather than as a digger so I'll possibly be running sites. I'll be at the Nationals though so I'll probably see you there.

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