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The Great Points Formula Debate!

 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:38 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
primarch wrote:
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I just realized another thing that I've been inconsistent about. When calculating values for Barrage weapons, I put in a multiplier when a specific value is shown for "to hit" but skip it when that entry has the BP value. I just realized that I should be doing it one way or the other, as otherwise the system could give different results for the same weapon depending on how the person who wrote that specific pdf wrote up the stats. Considering that weapons that combine fire have their 'to hit' value vary by final number of BP, it would be safest to just drop that factor where Barrages are concerned. Except when the listed 'to hit' value is different from what it would normally be for the weapon of that BP value, then the cost modifier would be the difference between the normal and the listed. This will take a little more diligence but will lead to a more consistent system. Thoughts?


I was going through the Imperial Titan Weapons' values recently, and I noticed that I had used adjustments for the 'to hit' entries when I should not have. Sigh. This means that all of the barrage based Titan Weapons are about to get a bit cheaper. I'll be posting the adjusted values a bit later tonight.

I was going through them as I've discovered that I neglected to put values to the Chaos Titan Weapons. Well, the ones that were not detailed in the Imperial list also. I should be posting those shortly after the adjusted Imperial weapons.


Hi!

Great!

I'm back from my test and sort of winding down from the stress. ;)

In a couple of days I should be back full throttle to start organizing and pushing forward Netepic Platinum as well as the Gold update.

Primarch


Good news! Hope your test went well Primarch! Glad to hear you are back!

I've been pretty much out of Epic of late but I hope to return with a vengeance starting with a game this Saturday!

I hope to try the new points costings soon but will have to chat about it with my opponent and see if he agrees to it. I'll keep you posted!


Hi!

Well, these kind of test of of such complexity and depth that you are never really sure until the results are in. But I "think" my effort was enough. ;)

Now that I have free time I think we can try to get that video camera game in at some point. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:48 pm 
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Yep, it would be good to give that a go - it would also be a great way to guarantee getting a game using Magnus' points costs. We must test out our connections to see if it is viable!

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:34 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
Yep, it would be good to give that a go - it would also be a great way to guarantee getting a game using Magnus' points costs. We must test out our connections to see if it is viable!


Hi!

First we need to talk about hardware. What to use and how many.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:01 am 
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primarch wrote:
The Bissler wrote:
Yep, it would be good to give that a go - it would also be a great way to guarantee getting a game using Magnus' points costs. We must test out our connections to see if it is viable!


Hi!

First we need to talk about hardware. What to use and how many.

Primarch


That is probably a conversation best done in a different thread, via PM, or by email.

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:54 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
primarch wrote:
The Bissler wrote:
Yep, it would be good to give that a go - it would also be a great way to guarantee getting a game using Magnus' points costs. We must test out our connections to see if it is viable!


Hi!

First we need to talk about hardware. What to use and how many.

Primarch


That is probably a conversation best done in a different thread, via PM, or by email.


Hi!

Okay. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:04 am 
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Adjusted Unit costs system [Base system by Primarch, tweaked by Magnus. Some values are tested, some are off-the-cuff, and all are up for debate.]

The total cost of a unit is made up from several factors, each based on a basic stat of the unit. These stats are:

A: Movement (how fast the unit can move modified by how it interacts with terrain and other units)
B: Armor Save (how resistant the unit is to taking damage)
C: Close Assault Factor: CAF (how good the unit is in Close Combat)
D: Ranged Weapons (shooting foes)
E: other (any other Special Ability not already taken into account above)

Calculated costs for each of these stats are added together to determine the final cost of the unit. No rounding of values takes place until the final value for the Formation is determined and then only to the nearest multiple of 5.

A: Movement

Movement cost consists of three factors. Unit Type, Movement rate, and Move type. Once the values for each of these is determined, they are multipled together.

_ Unit Type

The Unit type cost consists of two factors: pinning and movement restrictions.

The Unit Type categories for pinning in NetEpic Gold are:

1. Infantry & Light Artillery
2. Cavalry & Walkers
3. Vehicle & Heavy Artillery (also includes most Flyers, except any that specify otherwise)
4. Super Heavy & Knights
5. Praetorians & Titans

Since each category can pin that category and any lower, the cost for each level is that level's number and the numbers of each lower level added together. Thus Pinning costs are:

Infantry & Light Artillery: 1
Cavalry & Walkers: 3 (1+2)
Vehicle & Heavy Artillery: 6
Super Heavy & Knight: 10
Praetorian & Titan: 15

Movement Restrictions are arranged slightly differently. Based on the chart on page 30 of the NetEpic Gold pdf, counting each green box as +1 and each red box as -1 (yellow are 0), costs are:

Infantry & Light Artillery: 2 (3 Green, 1 Red)
Cavalry, Walker, & Knight: -1 (1 Green, 2 Red)
Vehicles & Heavy Artillery: -4 (1 Green, 5 Red)
Titans & Praetorians: 3 (7 Green, 4 Red)

I'm currently including Super Heavy and Flyers in the 'Vehicles' category. The chart on page 30 does not specify where Super Heavy should be included.

Thus, assuming we are going to restrict people to using the Types in NetEpic Gold*, the costs are as follows. [*: If someone really wants to make up a new type, it shouldn't be a problem. They would just have to specify which boxes of the chart on page 30 are which colors, determine which pinning class it occupies, and determine cost from there.]

Infantry & Light Artillery: 3 (1+2)
Cavalry & Walker: 2 (3-1)
Vehicle & Heavy Artillery: 2 (6-4)
Super Heavy: 6 (10-4)
Knight: 9 (10-1)
Praetorian & Titan: 18 (15+3)

_ Movement rate.

This value is very simple to determine. Simply take the Move of the unit in cm and divide by 5. To put that another way, this value is 1 point per 5cm of Move.

_ Movement Type

The manner in which the unit interacts with the terrain it travels over is very important. Most units use wheels, tracks, legs, or some combination thereof. All units have a base Move Type value of 1. The value is then multiplied by any modifiers.

_Modifiers:
Jump: 1.5
Skimmer (no pop-up): 1.5
Skimmer: 2
Support Craft: 2.5
Flyer: 3
Floater: 3
Agile: 2
Tunneler: 1.5
Command: 2
if winning, 3x Move: 2 (Khorne Berserkers)
always on Charge Orders: 1.5 (Khorne Berserkers)
does not double Move on Charge: 0.5 (Obliterators, many Super Heavy)

As examples of Movement values, let's consider a Tactical Marine squad, a Land Speeder, and a Thunderbolt.

The Tactical Marine is Infantry (3), with a Move of 10cm (2), and walks (1), thus its Move value is 3 times 2 times 1 for a total of 6.

The Land Speeder is Cavalry (2), with a Move of 30cm (6), and is a Skimmer (2). Its Move value is 2 times 6 times 2 for a total of 24.

The Thundebolt is a Vehicle (2), with a Move of 100cm (20), and is a Flyer (3). Its Move value is 2 times 20 times 3 for a total of 120!


B: Armor Save

The Armor Save value is represented by the number of higher on 1d6 that the Unit needs to roll in order to not take damage from a successful attack on it. The value of this factor is the number of points of such Save multiplied by 4 for a normal Save or by 8 for a Fixed Save. If the unit has both a normal and a Fixed save, add the values together. As examples, a Save listed as "6+" would have a value of 4; a Save listed as "4+" would be 12; a Save listed as "4+/Fixed 6+" would be 20 (12 for the normal, and 8 for the Fixed). The value is then multiplied by any modifiers.

_ Modifiers:
All-Around Armor: 2
Heavy Side armor: 1.5
Super Heavy: 1.5
Imperial Knight Shield: 1.25
modified Titan Head: -4 (not a multiplier)


C: CAF

The CAF is added to the unit's roll in Close Combat. Take the CAF and multiply by 4 to determine this value. The value is then multiplied by any modifiers.

_ CAF modifiers:
Elite: 1.5
Fear: 1.5
Terror: 2
Gains +1d6 vs Infantry, Cavalry, & non-robotic Light Artillery that do not have a Fixed armor save AND loses 1d6 vs all others: 1.1 (Striking Scorpion)
Auto kill (on 5+) any charged Infantry, Cavalry, & non-robotic Light Artillery that does not have a Fixed armor save: 1.2 (Howling Banshee)
Auto kill (on 5+) any charged model that does not have an armor save: 1.5 (Kroot Headhunter)
single use Terror in 10cm radius: 2 (Calidus Assassin)
foe Morale: Fall Back if fail, CAF-1 if succeed: 2 (Beast of Nurgle, Plaguebearer)
foe Morale: fail=Entranced: rolls no dice in CC; Inorganic immune: 2 (Daemonette)
foe Morale: fail=destroyed regardless of CC result, Inorganic immune: 2.5 (Fiend)
reroll once per encounter: 2 (Harlequin)
Imperial Shock Lance: 1.75
never outnumbered: 2 (Plaguebearer, Nurgle Daemon Engine)
always completes Charge and CC: 1.5 (Juggernaut)
Psychic, Ethereal: 2
Titan Weapon that adds X to CAF: +X*4 unless adds +1d6 then +3.5*4 (not multiplier)


D: Ranged Attacks

The value for Ranged attacks has five factors per weapon system. Each Weapon System (one line in the stat block) has it's own value calculated independently from the other weapon(s). The factors are: Number of Attacks; Range; To Hit number; TSM; other modifiers. Once these factors are known they are then multiplied together to find the final value for that weapon system.

Weapons that use a Template replace their base value (normally 4) with the value shown below. This value also replaces Range and/or Attacks values if those entries say "Template" rather than having a normal entry. If Range and/or Attacks show a normal entry (for example: 75cm or 2BP) then calculate using the normal modifier for that entry.
6cm Barrage: 4
12cm Barrage: 12
Small Teardrop: 5
Large Teardrop: 15

_ Number of Attacks

The value for this is the base value for each Weapon System. For every attack the value is 4 points. If instead of a number, the attack uses a Barrage template, the value is 4 points per BP. If the number of BP is determined by rolling the Artillery die, then the value is 20 (2 + 4 + 6 + 8 + 10 + 0, divided by 6 equals 5, times 4/BP is 20).

_ Range

The distance that a weapon system can hit targets within is very important. The default Range is considered to be 50cm, thus the Range (in cm) is divided by 50 to find the value for this factor. Standard Ranges and their values are:

15cm: 0.3
25cm: 0.5
35cm: 0.7
50cm: 1
75cm: 1.5
100cm: 2
150cm: 3
200cm: 4
LOS: 6

While these cover all existing, known units to date, there is nothing stopping players creating units with other Range values. Just divide your chosen Range by 50 to find its value. Minimum Range value is 0.1. Models that drop Barrages under them as they Fly overhead have a Range value of 1.

_ To Hit Number

This is shown as the lowest number that the attacker needs to roll on 1d6 in order to hit the target, ignoring situational modifiers. This value is also a multiplier. For this purpose, a 5+ is considered baseline, thus values are:

6+ 0.5
5+ 1
4+ 1.5
3+ 2
2+ 3
Auto: 4

_ TSM (Total Save Modifier)

This shows how powerful the attack is, adjusting the target's roll to Save by the amount listed. The weakest attack worth representing at this scale has a 0 TSM, and this is considered the baseline. Thus values are:

0: 1
-1: 2
-2: 3
-3: 4
-4: 5
-5: 6
etc
No save allowed: 8

_ Other weapon modifiers (all are multipliers unless division symbol "/" used)

AA: 2
adds 1d6 more Barrages: 3.5
all around: has 360 deg arc when normal unit Type doesn't: 1.5
always FF/Command: 1.5
Barrage weapon that can be combined with other like units in the same detachment: 1.5
Barrage weapon that may not be fired indirect: 0.5
Damages Buildings: 1.5
Destroys Buildings: 2
Fire on the Fly: 1.5
Gauss: 1.5
Grab: 1.5
Guided: 1.5 unless Submunition then no modifier
Ignores Cover: 1.5
Improved Grab: 2 (Tyranid Ripper Tentacles)
Knockdown: 1.5
Linked: required to fire at same target as another Weapon System (affects both Systems): 0.5
May not fire other weapons: 0.5
May not fire other weapons or move: 0.25
Mole Mortar Special: 1.5
Ordo-Malleus Special: 2
Penetrating: +.5 per point, thus:
Penetrating 1: 1.5
Penetrating 2: 2
Penetrating 3: 2.5
Penetrating 4: 3
Penetrating 5: 3.5
Psychic, Ethereal: 2
Psychic, Physical: 1.5
Quickdraw: 1.5
Recharge Attacks based on Orders: 0.5
Reduces move by half: 0.5 (also reduces the value of the Titan's Movement value: if a Warlord: Subtract 27 from final weapon value. The -27 is NOT a multiplier.)
Restricted Fire Arc; Weapon on a model that normally has 180 arc limited to 30 arc: /3
Restricted Fire Arc; Weapon on a model that normally has 360 arc limited to 180 arc: 0.75
RoF n: n (if RoF is 2, then mod is 2, if 4 then 4, etc)
Single-shot weapon: 0.1 per shot (for example, the six missiles on the AMO Golgotha are *0.6)
Thudd Gun Special: 2
Turret: 1.5
Vortex: 4

Point Defense (PDx): These are an additional Weapon System. There are two different costs per point of PD. This is because some Unit Types have 360 degree fire arcs and some do not, but PD always fires 360. [See Firing Arc section and chart on page 34 of the NetEpic Gold rules PDF.] Thus, for units that already have 360 fire arc, the cost is 1.35 (4 x0.3 (range) x0.5 (hit on 6+) x1.5 (always FF) x1.5 (fire during movement phase) ), whereas for units that do not the cost is 2.025 (as other plus x1.5 (360 arc) ).


Examples of Ranged Weapon System cost determination. For these examples, we will again look at the Marine Tactical squad, a Marine Land Speeder, and a Marine Thunderbolt.

The Tactical squad uses Bolters. These give 1 attack (value 4) to a Range of 50cm (value 1) with a To Hit of 5+ (value 1) and 0 TSM (value 1). Thus 4 times 1 times 1 times 1 equals 4.

The Land Speeder also has one Weapon System, which is a Multi-Melta. It has 1 attack (4) to a Range of 25cm (0.5) with a To Hit of 3+ (2) and a -2 TSM (3). Thus 4 x0.5 x2 x3 equals 12.

The Thunderbolt has two Weapon Systems. The first is Autocannon. It has 3 attacks (3x4=12) to a Range of 25cm (0.5) with a To Hit of 5+ (1) and a -1 TSM (2). Thus 12 x0.5 x1 x2 equals 12. The second is Rockets. They have a Barrage of 4 BP (4x4=16) that does not combine (1) to a Range of 25cm (0.5) with a To Hit of 5+ (1) and a -1 TSM (2). Thus 16 x1 x0.5 x1 x2 equals 16.


E: Special Abilities

The values for the following abilites are not multipliers.

Artificial Intelligence - 2 and see Morale
C'tan - 5 (Psychic Vulnerability -10; Regenerate CC hits 15)
Chapter Master Special - 15
Change Orders - 15 (Colonel, Major)
Chaos Reward card - 15 per card, add to Formation cost after number of models is determined, but before any other Formation modifier is applied.
Combat Leader - 10 (allies in 10cm gain CAF+1)
Combat Engineer - 10
Confessor Special - 50
Daemon Engine:
_ Khorne - 6
_ Slaanesh - 30
_ Tzeentch - 0 (see 'Chaos Reward card' above)
Daemon Hunter - 10
Daemon Prince - see below
Deathrolla - 10
Deep Strike - 20
Deflector Shield - 12.5 per Shield
Disrupt Psychic - 15
Duplication (on death becomes one or more other models) - cost of the model(s)
Eldar Knight Psychic Lance: 10
Forward Observer Special - 10
Greater Daemon - see below
Hard to Hit - 15
Hit & Run - 10
Headquarters (HQ) - 10
Holo Field, non-Titan: 20
Holo Field, Titan: 25
Holy Rage - 10
Ignore Stealth if on First Fire - 10
Immune Ethereal Psychic - 15
Immune to Morale checks to 25cm (allies of same faction only: ie Imperial, Tyranid, etc) - 50 (Inquisitor, Hive Queen)
Infiltration - 20
Inorganic - 5
Inspirational - 10
Inspirational 25cm - 25
Leading Presence - 40
Living Metal - 15
Markerlights for Infantry/Walker - 10
Markerlights for other - 15
Medic - 15
Mechanic - 15
Multiple Wounds - 20 per wound above 1
No coherency - 10
Orb of Resurrection - 10
Power Shield - 5 per Shield
Prevents Greater Daemons from using Chaos Cards to negate damage within 25cm - 25
Produce Fear in radius 1 per turn: (Angron, Hive Queen)
- base cost is equal to radius
- default use is during Combat Phase, +10 to base if usable at any time
- multiply base by 1.5 if Ethereal Psychic ability
Psychic Save 6+ - 5
Psychic Save 5+ - 10
Psychic Save 4+ - 15
Psyker - 20
Regeneration - 20
Rerolls "1" in Close Combat, rerolls "1 or 2" against specific foe - 10
Robotic - see morale
Sniper - 20
Static Artillery - see morale
Stealth - 20
Stealth, Improved - 30 (does not require being in cover)
Teleport - 20
Titan Weapon Hardpoint (Praetorian or Titan only) - 15 per
Tow - 2
Transport - see below
Void Shield - 10 per shield


The Greater Daemon ability is too complicated to give a fixed value to. Apply as follows:
_ 1. Command: apply the modifiers for Command to Move (*2) and all Weapons (*1.5) as normal.
_ 2. Pinning: Instead of the normal Movement value for a Knight (9), we combine the pinning value for Knights (10) with the terrain value for Infantry (2), for a Movement value of 12.
_ 3. Fearless: applies the normal modifier (*1.4) to the Formation cost.
_ 4. "That didn't hurt": While it's an automatic success to rescue the model from a failed save, it is limited by the number of Chaos Cards the player has. Thus I'm giving it a value of 20. EXCEPTION: Greater Daemon Engines do not benefit from this ability. However, the cost of this feature is still applied to them. Why? Because Chaos.
_ 5. Terror: applies the modifier to CAF for Terror (*2)
_ 6. Inspire Minions: better than Inspirational, but has a major downside. Value 15.
_ 7. Psychic Vulnerability: Value -10.
_ 8. Required Support: Value -30.
Thus while the fixed cost value is -5, the other features will increase the cost of the model.

The Daemon Prince ability is similarly complicated, but not quite as bad.
_ 1. Command: apply the modifiers for Command to Move and all Weapons. Also has the HQ ability.
_ 2. Pinning: these count as Walker for all purposes, so no change.
_ 3. Fearless: applies the normal modifier (*1.4) to the Formation cost.
_ 4. "That didn't hurt": While it's an automatic success to rescue the model from a failed save, it is limited by the number of Chaos Cards the player has. Thus I'm giving it a value of 20. EXCEPTION: Daemon Prince Daemon Engines do not benefit from this feature. However, the cost of this feature is still applied to them. Why? Because Chaos.
_ 5. Psychic Vulnerability: Value -10.
Their fixed cost is thus 10, with variable costs from the other features.

_ Transport:

The base cost of Transport is 4 points. For your 4 points that model is allowed to carry 2 squads/stands of Infantry or Light Artillery. Requires Vehicle class or larger.

Modifer 1: Move of unit with Transport
The standard Move for a unit with Transport is considered to be 20cm (4). For every 5cm above or below this number, the base cost is adjusted by 1 point.

Modifier 2: Unitclass
_To be able to only carry Command models, subtract 1 from the base cost. This is generally only chosen for Transports that accompany Company HQ models or those on Special formations. The default is that such models will not be able to carry any unitclass higher than Infantry. Any exceptions must be noted.
_To be able to carry Walker class units, add +2 to base cost. Requires Vehicle class.
_To be able to carry Vehicle class units, add another +2 to base cost. Requires Super Heavy class.
_To be able to carry Super Heavy class units, add another +2 to base cost. Requires Praetorian class.
_To be able to carry Praetorian/Scout Titan class units, add another +2 to base cost. Requires Praetorian class.
_To be able to carry Battle Titan class (Reaver, Warlord) class units, add another +2 to base cost.
_To be able to carry Imperator or Mega-Gargant class units, add another +2 to base cost.

Modifier 3: Capacity
_To be able to only carry 1 squad/stand, subtract half the base cost.* (Razorback)
_To be able to carry 3 squads/stands, add half the base cost.* (Battlewagon)
_To be able to carry one Detachment's worth of Infantry (typically 6 to 10 squads/stands), apply the base cost again. This should require the model to be Super Heavy or larger.
_To be able to carry one Company's worth of Infantry, apply the base cost again. This should require the model to be a Praetorian.
_To be able to carry each additional Company, apply the base cost again.
_To be able to bypass one required class of vehicle for capacity, apply the base cost again. For example, a Mole can carry one Detachemnt of Infantry, but is only a Vehicle class model. It would have to apply this modifier.

*: If you select either of these options, you may not add any additional Capacity to this model.

Adjustments to other Special Abilities:
_ The Open Top allows the models carried to fire out, but any hit on the unit will also hit a unit carried. This adjusts the base cost by -1.
_ The Tow ability is now just a lowest-level use of Transport. That is, the model with Tow may carry one squad/stand of Infantry or Light Artillery for a cost of 2 points, adjusted by Move.


Let's complete the calculations for the three units above.

The Tactical Marine has a Move value of 6; has a Save of 5+, value is 8; CAF of 2, value 8; Weapon System value of 4; Morale value of 8; no Special Abilities for a total cost of 34 which rounds to 35.

The Land Speeder has a Move value of 24; Save of 5+, value 8; CAF of 3, value 12; Weapon System value 12; Morale value 8; for a total cost of 64, rounds to 65.

The Thunderbolt has a Move value of 120; Save of 4+, value 12; CAF of 4, value 16; Weapon System values of 12 & 16; Morale value 8; for a total of 184, rounds to 185.

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Last edited by MagnusIlluminus on Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:15 am 
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Formation building

_ Break Point:
Adjust the cost of a formation by the percentage that the Break Point varies from 100%. For example, a formation with three models generally has a BP of 2. In this case, one would adjust the cost by multiplying by 2/3. Any model(s) that do not contribute toward the Break Point multiply their vaule by 0.25.

_ Morale:
The default Morale value is 4 (Guardsman / Ork) so that the few formations with values of 5 would get a 10% discount, whereas those with better values would cost more in increments of 10%. Thus:
Morale 5: -10%
Morale 4: no change
Morale 3: +10%
Morale 2: +20%
Morale 1: +30%
Fearless, AI or Morale "--": +40%
Immune to all Morale checks except for Break Point: +30% (Tyranid)
Hive Mind values are as per Morale values above, but at -5%
Independent -10%
Static Artillery -10%
Fearless vs one Faction (usually Chaos): +20% (Harlequin)

_ Command/Orders:
Models with Robotic or Independent ignore any proximity discount.
May only be given orders if within 25cm of Command unit: -10% (Guard)
May only be given orders if within 15cm of Command unit: -15% (Tyranid)
May only be given orders if within 10cm of Command unit: -20% (Ork, Tz Automation)
Chaos Android Special: -10%
Non-default Instinctive behavior, worse: -10% (Chaos Troll)
Non-default Instinctive behavior, better: +10% (Automation, Blood Slaughterer; Ork, Tyranid, Waystone Spirit)
Duplicates orders of ally within 10cm: -10% (Waystone Spirit)
- Ally must be living: -5% (Waystone Spirit)
- May be given orders if within 10cm of Command unit: +5% (Waystone Spirit)
- Ally may be within LOS rather than 10cm: +5% (Chaos Gretchin)

_ Formation type:

A Company receives a 10% discount on the cost of the Formations that comprise it. This discount applies to any Command or HQ models.

A Special Formation receives a 20% discount to the final formation cost IF the primary model (excluding transport) is not found in any other formation in that Faction. If it does contain non-unique non-transport models, it receives a discount just because of being a Special, but is just 10% in that case, and in any event should have some difference from a Support Formation.

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Last edited by MagnusIlluminus on Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:33 pm 
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Hi!

Thanks for the summary and update. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:13 am 
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Added a few tweaks and updated the posts above. A few things were rearranged as well. The only major change so far is that I've decided that Penetrating should be treated the same regardless of whether the weapon is on a Titan or not.

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:20 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Added a few tweaks and updated the posts above. A few things were rearranged as well. The only major change so far is that I've decided that Penetrating should be treated the same regardless of whether the weapon is on a Titan or not.


Hi!

Great, Thanks!

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:56 am 
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Right, since I've completed the basic run on the primary armies, and several of the secondaries, I have started into the "tweak runs" that I mentioned above. Each will be posted in their respective thread over in the Army Lists thread.

As I am not specifying what each column is for in those posts, I should do so here. At the moment, I have 6 "plans" ordered from A to F.

A is the basic run points values with a couple of fairly minor adjustments. Primarily just the Penetrating multiplier change, but I'm also adjusting how much a model contributes to the cost of a formation when it doesn't contribute to the Break Point. Before I had it at 5%, but that just seems too low, so I'm adjusting that to 25%. This is still low without being negligible.

B is as A but changing the cost of direct fire (IE not template) weapons from 4 points per shot to 1 point per shot. This is mostly aimed at reigning in the cost of really high end weapons like Primarch Magus' Beam and the Volcano Cannon, and has little effect on minor troops.

C is as A but halving the cost of all templates for weapons. As with B, this will have the largest effect on expensive weapons systems, and a smaller effect on less expensive ones.

D is as A but adjusting for both B and C above.

E is as A but changing the cost per point of CAF from being a fixed 4 points to being the sum of the Unit Type value, the Move rate value, and the Move type value minus 1. These three values are added rather than multiplied together. I am subtracting 1 from the Move Type value as 1 is the default value and should thus have no cost.

F is as A but adjusted by both D and E above.

I was going to try and have a tweak run where I reduce all weapon modifiers by half, but that would be a long and involved process and would take more time than I want to put into it at the moment. I may do that later, but not right now.

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:52 pm 
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Hi!

If I had to pick but one option, I like "b" the best.

That said "D" is very attractive to me as well.

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:44 pm 
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For anyone following these "tweak runs", is seeing all of the numbers for each step actually helpful or should I just be posting the final results? I'm asking as this is a lot of typing getting all of this data together. I may just switch over to just typing up columns A, D, & F. Possibly even just A & F. Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:56 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
For anyone following these "tweak runs", is seeing all of the numbers for each step actually helpful or should I just be posting the final results? I'm asking as this is a lot of typing getting all of this data together. I may just switch over to just typing up columns A, D, & F. Possibly even just A & F. Thoughts?


Hi!

I rather have all the steps. It is easier to see where a potential problem is this way. Also it is easier to notice where most of the cost comes from in case some tweaks need to be done.

So, one vote in the "Details" column. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:25 am 
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I am loosing interest in typing up all of these columns, so I'm just going to do A (Base) and F (all Tweaks) for the remaining Factions. If there is a problem with a model or formation, I can always post more details for that one.

Frankly, it is probably about time that more Factions had one (or more) Support formations that work out as Free. I imagine that most of the models that are having zero (or negative) costs are very rarely used anyway. This just might get someone to take a formation here and there.

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