Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 161 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next

The Great Points Formula Debate!

 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 3:34 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Coincidentally, this slight change to how Transport works should make Mattman's job easier in constructing Formation options as many models with Transport will be able to carry a Detachment (Support Formation) rather than a fixed number of stands. Thus the exact number of Infantry squads in a Support Formation has less importance.


Hi!

I love when it all comes together. :)

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 5:42 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1474
In light of nobody being willing to rate Psykers for me, I've been going through each one and giving each a unique value based on their individual abilities. I've also been finding that the vast majority of the abilities I've seen so far (Titan Legions, Eldar, and Chaos) are rateable by using the Weapons formula. I honestly was not expecting that. While this means that doing each Faction takes a little bit longer (depending on how many Psykers they have), the results will / should be more accurate than a flat rate.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 4:04 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
In light of nobody being willing to rate Psykers for me, I've been going through each one and giving each a unique value based on their individual abilities. I've also been finding that the vast majority of the abilities I've seen so far (Titan Legions, Eldar, and Chaos) are rateable by using the Weapons formula. I honestly was not expecting that. While this means that doing each Faction takes a little bit longer (depending on how many Psykers they have), the results will / should be more accurate than a flat rate.


Hi!

That sounds fine to me Magnus. A rating is very subjective, so if you can apply the weapons formula, I find that much more objective and in the end balanced than a "gut rating" would be.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:01 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1474
As I've been doing more of these point value lists for each faction, I've been slowly noticing that the Weapon costs are often coming out high and making models (Basilisk, Bombard, Primarch Magnus, Mortar Battlecar, etc) almost if not actually prohibitively expensive. I am beginning to think of / about ways to adjust this, but I will finish out the remaining lists using the current ratings before I begin tweaking weapon modifier values.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:05 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
As I've been doing more of these point value lists for each faction, I've been slowly noticing that the Weapon costs are often coming out high and making models (Basilisk, Bombard, Primarch Magnus, Mortar Battlecar, etc) almost if not actually prohibitively expensive. I am beginning to think of / about ways to adjust this, but I will finish out the remaining lists using the current ratings before I begin tweaking weapon modifier values.


Hi!

That's fine Magnus, once its all done and anaylsis of that type becomes much easier to do. :)

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:56 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:34 pm
Posts: 3111
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Just a quick query; is there any way that the new points values will impact upon actually playing the game? Obviously VPs will reflect the new costs but I'm trying to work out how this will affect play. Presumably nothing will change except that the points values for games will increase in line with the increase in points.

I'm thinking that Titans & Praetorians will be even bigger targets than before as the VP yield increases; that actually makes more sense though, obviously armies would want to take down these beasts before all else.

_________________
Proud to be described by CyberShadow as Tactical Command's "...biggest threat in recent times..."!

Clickable links for Epic hijinks:
Epic 40K Players Page on Facebook
Net Epic Evolution Rules
Net Epic War! Campaign Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:12 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
The Bissler wrote:
Just a quick query; is there any way that the new points values will impact upon actually playing the game? Obviously VPs will reflect the new costs but I'm trying to work out how this will affect play. Presumably nothing will change except that the points values for games will increase in line with the increase in points.

I'm thinking that Titans & Praetorians will be even bigger targets than before as the VP yield increases; that actually makes more sense though, obviously armies would want to take down these beasts before all else.


Hi!

I think the impact is a combination of the new points formula AND the newer formations that go with it.

I foresee armies like the orks and tyranids acting much more like "mobs" without all the artificial restrictions in place for them currently. These armies have the potential of being markedly larger due to the lower points costs compared to say eldar or SM forces. This means you can play these armies as "expendable" forces that take a lot of causalities, but can overwhelm the foe. I think they will be more resilient than they are now.

On the other hand SM and Eldar players need to know how to conserve their forces and get the most of their high yield units. They will cost more and each loss hurts more. Those players will need to get used to being outnumbered. The newer formations will permit them a lot of tactical flexibility not currently afforded.

I suspect there will be a lot of nuances that will not be apparent until they are actually tested. I expect the impact to be significant.

That is without going into things like fliers and AA which needs a debate once more to how they will be integrated to the main system.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:20 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:34 pm
Posts: 3111
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
All this is to be welcomed. I feel that the Orks are overpriced, especially when you consider that for most clans the CAF is poor as is their weapon range & TSMs. I think there will be a lot more emphasis on infantry just because you will get more bang for your buck. It will be very interesting to see how this all pans out.

_________________
Proud to be described by CyberShadow as Tactical Command's "...biggest threat in recent times..."!

Clickable links for Epic hijinks:
Epic 40K Players Page on Facebook
Net Epic Evolution Rules
Net Epic War! Campaign Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:40 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
The Bissler wrote:
All this is to be welcomed. I feel that the Orks are overpriced, especially when you consider that for most clans the CAF is poor as is their weapon range & TSMs. I think there will be a lot more emphasis on infantry just because you will get more bang for your buck. It will be very interesting to see how this all pans out.


Hi!

I agree that relative to other armies, Ork stuff is overpriced, so the formula will fix that. For example a goff boyz/bad moons stands (the better boyz stands in the ork list) is worth 22 points per stand versus 26 for an SM tactical.

Therefore the best ork boy stands is still cheaper than SM tactical. Select evil sunz boyz at 14 points and you almost get TWO of those for one tactical!!

Therefore overall ork hordes will be LARGER, with more ability to soak up damage, which I think is appropriate for orks. :)

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:06 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1474
One immediate impact is Transport. Mainly for models that previously held 5, 6, 8, 10, or some other specific number of squads, as they now hold 1 Detachment, 2 Detachments, or even 1 Company in certain cases, regardless of the specific number of squads per Detachment. Also partly for Command Transport models, who generally are just rated for 1 HQ model per.

As an aside, I would recommend altering the descriptions for these models in Gold accordingly, as well as in Platinum. I suppose they wouldn't have to be changed in the base descriptions, but if they aren't changed there, then the Transport changes will have to be noted in whatever document or section that lists the Points Formula Values for the models.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:09 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1474
On impact to the game, specifically thinking about an issue The Bissler had, it will now be quicker to get into the 'second tier' of Ork clans, as the restricted ones now cost a total of 2575 rather than 3950 under current NetEpic values.


As I noted above, weapon costs are going to need some form of overhaul. Once I do the Tyranid list under the current setup, I'll start really looking into this, but I wanted to run a couple of ideas past people.

My first idea is to halve the base cost for all Template weapons, and reduce the base cost for direct fire weapons (anything that is not a Template) from 4 to 1. While this would have a minimal effect on most Infantry to Vehicles, models like Magnus, many Titan Weapons, and Praetorians would notice the difference.

My second idea is to halve all modifiers (except number of attacks or BP) after the base cost. In other words, a modifier that had been *2 would now be *1.5. The exact impact of this approach would probably be similar to the first, minimal to no impact on simple weapons near or at default and great impact on the more powerful ones.

Third is to do both 1 and 2 above together. This might be too much modification, but only trying would tell for sure.

I realize that the above is not a lot of information, but what do people think about these ideas?

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:13 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Hi!

My vote is to do both Magnus.

I think both can use some tweaking and larger units will benefit from the cost reduction.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:11 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1474
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I just realized another thing that I've been inconsistent about. When calculating values for Barrage weapons, I put in a multiplier when a specific value is shown for "to hit" but skip it when that entry has the BP value. I just realized that I should be doing it one way or the other, as otherwise the system could give different results for the same weapon depending on how the person who wrote that specific pdf wrote up the stats. Considering that weapons that combine fire have their 'to hit' value vary by final number of BP, it would be safest to just drop that factor where Barrages are concerned. Except when the listed 'to hit' value is different from what it would normally be for the weapon of that BP value, then the cost modifier would be the difference between the normal and the listed. This will take a little more diligence but will lead to a more consistent system. Thoughts?


I was going through the Imperial Titan Weapons' values recently, and I noticed that I had used adjustments for the 'to hit' entries when I should not have. Sigh. This means that all of the barrage based Titan Weapons are about to get a bit cheaper. I'll be posting the adjusted values a bit later tonight.

I was going through them as I've discovered that I neglected to put values to the Chaos Titan Weapons. Well, the ones that were not detailed in the Imperial list also. I should be posting those shortly after the adjusted Imperial weapons.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:55 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I just realized another thing that I've been inconsistent about. When calculating values for Barrage weapons, I put in a multiplier when a specific value is shown for "to hit" but skip it when that entry has the BP value. I just realized that I should be doing it one way or the other, as otherwise the system could give different results for the same weapon depending on how the person who wrote that specific pdf wrote up the stats. Considering that weapons that combine fire have their 'to hit' value vary by final number of BP, it would be safest to just drop that factor where Barrages are concerned. Except when the listed 'to hit' value is different from what it would normally be for the weapon of that BP value, then the cost modifier would be the difference between the normal and the listed. This will take a little more diligence but will lead to a more consistent system. Thoughts?


I was going through the Imperial Titan Weapons' values recently, and I noticed that I had used adjustments for the 'to hit' entries when I should not have. Sigh. This means that all of the barrage based Titan Weapons are about to get a bit cheaper. I'll be posting the adjusted values a bit later tonight.

I was going through them as I've discovered that I neglected to put values to the Chaos Titan Weapons. Well, the ones that were not detailed in the Imperial list also. I should be posting those shortly after the adjusted Imperial weapons.


Hi!

Great!

I'm back from my test and sort of winding down from the stress. ;)

In a couple of days I should be back full throttle to start organizing and pushing forward Netepic Platinum as well as the Gold update.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:08 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:34 pm
Posts: 3111
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
primarch wrote:
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I just realized another thing that I've been inconsistent about. When calculating values for Barrage weapons, I put in a multiplier when a specific value is shown for "to hit" but skip it when that entry has the BP value. I just realized that I should be doing it one way or the other, as otherwise the system could give different results for the same weapon depending on how the person who wrote that specific pdf wrote up the stats. Considering that weapons that combine fire have their 'to hit' value vary by final number of BP, it would be safest to just drop that factor where Barrages are concerned. Except when the listed 'to hit' value is different from what it would normally be for the weapon of that BP value, then the cost modifier would be the difference between the normal and the listed. This will take a little more diligence but will lead to a more consistent system. Thoughts?


I was going through the Imperial Titan Weapons' values recently, and I noticed that I had used adjustments for the 'to hit' entries when I should not have. Sigh. This means that all of the barrage based Titan Weapons are about to get a bit cheaper. I'll be posting the adjusted values a bit later tonight.

I was going through them as I've discovered that I neglected to put values to the Chaos Titan Weapons. Well, the ones that were not detailed in the Imperial list also. I should be posting those shortly after the adjusted Imperial weapons.


Hi!

Great!

I'm back from my test and sort of winding down from the stress. ;)

In a couple of days I should be back full throttle to start organizing and pushing forward Netepic Platinum as well as the Gold update.

Primarch


Good news! Hope your test went well Primarch! Glad to hear you are back!

I've been pretty much out of Epic of late but I hope to return with a vengeance starting with a game this Saturday!

I hope to try the new points costings soon but will have to chat about it with my opponent and see if he agrees to it. I'll keep you posted!

_________________
Proud to be described by CyberShadow as Tactical Command's "...biggest threat in recent times..."!

Clickable links for Epic hijinks:
Epic 40K Players Page on Facebook
Net Epic Evolution Rules
Net Epic War! Campaign Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 161 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net