I've been being really bothered by how expensive Formations of single models (especially Titans) are getting, as they are going to be see a lot less use. I've thought of a possible way around this, at least partially.

At the moment, the system considers a Break Point of 50% to be standard with anything varying from that affecting the cost. Thus single models price goes up by 50% right there. Considering that most single models are also Fearless or have no Morale score, their cost just about doubles between these two factors.

My idea here is that the system change to consider 100% to be the normal for Break Point, and anything lower receives a discount. This would mean that while Titans, Praetorians, and similar formations, while still being expensive, would no longer be prohibitively expensive. It would also help offset the rise is costs for just about everything else.

What do people think about this idea? I'll try to get some numbers together so that comparisons can be made.

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Sorry Magnus, the only Psyker units I have experience of are:

Eldar Warlock - I don't really know how you could cost this, other than to say the psychic ability should be a flat cost much like any other ability. This unit always felt slightly under costed on the old system. I always felt it should have cost 150 points under that system but I know that isn't particularly helpful.
Eldar Warlock Titan - it has 3 abilities but in practice I have only ever used the one which incurs a -1 on rolls to hit for enemy units firing upon it. I'm guessing that could be factored into your system as the base cost?

Weirdboy Battletower - and you have that one sorted.

I was always terrible at maths and with formulas in particular so I an a very poor person to assist with these matters. I am more than annoyingly willing to express my view when the formula puts out a result I don't like though...

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Going by those shown in the Space Marines thread and weapon costs thread, here's my point of view on Titan Costs:

The cost of a Titan armed with 2 Volcano Cannon & 2 Turbo laser destructors came in about the same as a Battle Company. That feels spot on to me.

The Reaver hull feels slightly overpriced, but not by much.

As for the Warhounds, they obviously have a big jump in cost, and these are the ones I'd be most concerned about. They were underpriced before, but now seem to be too much in the high side... I dunno, it's a difficult one to figure out!

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Hi!

I think that is a good idea Magnus, assume a 100% for break point as the base and discount from there. That should lower cost.

Mind you, I personally don't have problem with the points costs as is, but let's see what we get with an alternate method.

Primarch

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[copied from Imperial Guard sub-forum, as it should be here too]

Thus it seems we need to redefine how the Transport ability is applied when creating a model's stats, and the costs thereof. While my plan here won't be a 'flat' cost as such, it will certainly be flatter. I've also thought of another factor that should modify the cost of Transport. This makes the Transport ability a little more complicated to apply, but will overall cost less, I think.
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Revised Transport:

The base cost of Transport is 4 points. For your 4 points that model is allowed to carry 2 squads/stands of Infantry or Light Artillery. Requires Vehicle class or larger.

Modifer 1: Move of unit with Transport
The standard Move for a unit with Transport is considered to be 20cm (4). For every 5cm above or below this number, the base cost is adjusted by 1 point.

Modifier 2: Unitclass
_To be able to carry Walker class units, add +2 to base cost. Requires Vehicle class.
_To be able to carry Vehicle class units, add another +2 to base cost. Requires Super Heavy class.
_To be able to carry Super Heavy class units, add another +2 to base cost. Requires Praetorian class.
_To be able to carry Praetorian/Scout Titan class units, add another +2 to base cost. Requires Praetorian class.
_To be able to carry Battle Titan class (Reaver, Warlord) class units, add another +2 to base cost.
_To be able to carry Imperator or Mega-Gargant class units, add another +2 to base cost.

Modifier 3: Capacity
_If you really want to only be able to carry 1 squad/stand, the base cost is reduced by -2.
_To be able to carry one Detachment's worth of Infantry (typically 6 to 10 squads/stands), apply the base cost again. This should require the model to be Super Heavy or larger.
_To be able to carry one Company's worth of Infantry, apply the base cost again. This should require the model to be a Praetorian.
_To be able to carry each additional Company, apply the base cost again.
_To be able to bypass one required class of vehicle for capacity, apply the base cost again. For example, a Mole can carry one Detachemnt of Infantry, but is only a Vehicle class model. It would have to apply this modifier.

Adjustments to other Special Abilities:
_ The Open Top ability now has zero (0) cost modifier, as it allows the vehicle to carry +50% additional squads/stands, but any hit on the unit will also hit a unit carried.
_ The Tow ability is now just a lowest-level use of Transport. That is, the model with Tow may carry one squad/stand of Infantry or Light Artillery for a cost of 2 points, adjusted by Move.
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Examples of Transport costs:
A Chimera (or variant) can carry 2 squads of Infantry (base 4) and has a Move of 20cm, and can carry Walker, so its base cost for its Transport is 4+0+2=6, for a total cost of 6.
A Rhino carries 2 squads of Infantry and has Move of 25cm, and can carry Walker. Thus it's base cost is 4+1+2=7, and the cost of its Transport is 7.
A Razorback only carries 1 squad and has Move 25cm. It's base cost is thus 4-2+1=3, for a total cost of 3.
A Termite carries 2 Infantry, Moves 15cm. Thus base cost is 4-1=3, for a total cost of 3.
A Mole carries 1 Detachment of Infantry, Move of 15cm. Thus base cost is 4-1=3 and total is 3+3+3=9 (base +detachment +ignore unitclass required).
A Mole that can carry Walker would be base 5 and total 15.
A Valkyrie is Vehicle, carries 2 Infantry, Move 60cm. Base is 4+8=12, for a cost of 12.
A Gorgon carries 1 Infantry Detachment, is SH, Move 10cm. Base cost is 4-2=2, for a total of 2+2=4.
A Gorgon that can carry Walker would be base 4-2+2=4 and total 4+4=8.
A Hellbore is Praetorian, may carry 1 Infantry Company, and Move 15cm. Base is 4-1=3, total is 3+3+3=9 (base +Detachment +Company).
A Hellbore that can carry Walker would be base of 5, and total of 15.
A Leviathan is Praetorian, may carry 1 Infantry Company, and Move 10cm. Base is 4-2=2, total is 2+2+2=6.
An Imperial Dropship is Praetorian, may carry a lot of anything (including an Imperator!), and Move special. Since this enters the board much like Deep Strike but slower, I'm inclined to give that no modifier. Base cost works to 4+12=16, and total to 16+16+16+16+16 (three Companies of Infantry) = 80 (this is still less than it's current value).
A Capitol Imperialis is Praetorian, may carry 2 Companies, and Move 10cm. Base is 4-2+6 (up to Super Heavy) = 8, and total cost of 8+8+8+8=32.
An Imperator is a Mega-Titan, can carry 1 Infantry Company, and Move 10cm. Base is thus 4-2=2, and total cost is 2+2+2=6.

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Hi!

Thanks for the update!

Primarch

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Whoops, I made an error. That's not what Open Top does. It allows the models carried to fire out with the risk of any hit on the Transport also hitting a model carried. Hmm, in that case it should probably adjust the base cost by -1, as IMHO the risk outweighs the benefit. Thoughts?

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Hi!

Yes, -1, the risk indeed outweighs any reward.

Primarch

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A couple more modifiers to Transport, inspired by the Ork list, and one slightly changed.
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To be able to only carry Command models, subtract 1 from the base cost. This is generally only chosen for Transports that accompany Company HQ models or those on Special formations. The default is that such models will not be able to carry any unitclass higher than Infantry. Any exceptions must be noted.

To be able to only carry 1 squad/stand, subtract half the base cost.* (Razorback)
To be able to carry 3 squads/stands, add half the base cost.* (Battlewagon)

*: If you select either of these options, you may not add any additional Capacity to this model.

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Hi!

That's a good catch. I would not have thought of limited transport ability like hq transport.

Primarch

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Me neither, nicely spotted Magnus.

On a separate note, I just wanted to say that it's incredible how much work you've put into this, and I and I'm sure many others very much appreciate what you're doing here.

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Thanks for the appreciation, it's good to feel appreciated. It is eating up quite a bit of time, but I'm (mostly) enjoying it, so it's all good.

Oh, if it isn't obvious, the construction rules above slightly change how the Transport ability functions. That is, with the exception of the default and the first two options under Capacity, the exact number of squads carried no longer matters. To say that another way, the number of models carried is determined by the type of Formation that the Transport is able to carry, rather than a specific number, except for the default and the options to carry either one or three squads. Thus if a model is able to carry a Company, then it does not matter whether that Company is Infantry, Cavalry*, Walker, Vehicle, or Super Heavy, so long as the model has purchased the ability to carry that unitclass. The exception to this should be Praetorians & Titans. These should each count as one Company, with a Mega-Titan class counting as at least two and possibly three Companies. To put that another way, a model could not be built with only the baseline Capacity & unitclass up to Titan, and claim to be able to carry two Titans. Said model would have to purchase Capacity of two Companies to be able to carry two Titans.

*: Cavalry. I did leave Cavalry off of the list of unitclass above. I just couldn't quite decide whether to equate them to Walker or Vehicle, and it just doesn't seem to be worth it's own entry. They share the same pinning class as Walker, but in every description of Transport I've seen, it has mentioned that they may carry Walkers but not Cavalry. It would probably be best to equate Cavalry to Vehicle for that reason, but I'm just not sure. What do you guys think?

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Hi!

This +1000%!!!

Your making a long held dream of mine come true with this points formula. It's awesome in so many ways and I can't wait to use it to design some vehicles!

Primarch

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Hi!

I would equate cavalry to vehicles. I think its the most consistent approximation.

Primarch

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Coincidentally, this slight change to how Transport works should make Mattman's job easier in constructing Formation options as many models with Transport will be able to carry a Detachment (Support Formation) rather than a fixed number of stands. Thus the exact number of Infantry squads in a Support Formation has less importance.

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