primarch wrote:
Regarding command structure, the baseline seems to be "none", so I agree those that are forced to use one will have to get some sort of discount to fairly access the restriction.
primarch wrote:
Morale.
Since morale and command radius is more an army dependent variable than the actual model, I thought once you form your formation an added cost to the total of the formation could be added to better reflect the advantages of a given army list.
As I believe Magnus' mentioned, IG and Orks will be sort of a baseline where they have NO ADDED cost to their formations since they have the most restrictive command radius and the other armies with better command (no restriction) pay for the privilege.
Actually, I proposed exactly the opposite, which you agreed to. That is, that requiring NO Command radius would be the norm and thus no cost, while requiring one would give a discount.
primarch wrote:
There are two ways to do this. One is a flat across the board added formation cost per army. It is one value for all formations in that army regardless of the actual morale that individual formations may have since this number is more of an "average" of the armies effectiveness.
So you are proposing moving from a very detailed unit-building system to a very abstracted detachment building system? Seems like a break in continuity to me.
primarch wrote:
OR
Assign two added values, one for the army and one for the morale.
I do not understand what you are trying to say here. Are you trying to create a third tier at which costs are placed: the Army? What is this 'army value' supposed to be. Also, don't forget about Break Point.
primarch wrote:
I would think just one value (however determined) would be more efficient.
Yes, having an abstractly determined value would be simpler, but it would not take into account the ability of the units nor their numbers. And what about units that are Independent or Robotic or Fearless? Doing this says that these abilities have no value.
primarch wrote:
Suggested values per formation in armies would be:
IG - no additional cost
Orks - no additional cost
Squats and Tau- 25 points per formation
Eldar, chaos and Marines - 50 points per formation
Tyranids and Necrons (or any army that has a preponderance of fearless units) - 75 points per formation
Thus a IG formation worth 250 points would remain unchanged.
A squat formation worth 250 points would be modified to 275 points
A marine formation worth 250 points is now 300.
A Tyranid formation worth 250 is now 325.
Thoughts?
Primarch
Actually, there is a third way, which is what I (began to) detail a few posts above. That is, that the cost of a detachment should be adjusted due to four factors. Break Point, Morale, Command structure, and Formation type. As a note, I favor using percentages for this step as it means that the cost will be higher for larger groups and for more powerful models, while smaller and/or less powerful ones will be hit less. Each of the four following costs should be determined from the base formation cost (the sum of the calculated unit costs multiplied by how many of them there are in the formation), and then the base formation cost adjusted by each in turn.
For Break Point, what I suggested above would probably be fine (IE adjust the cost of a formation by the percentage that the Break Point varies from 50%). The fact that the Tau army formations have different point costs when they have different Break Points supports this suggestion.
The default Morale value should probably be 4 (Guardsman / Ork) so that the few formations with values of 5 would get a 10% discount, whereas those with better values would cost more in increments of 10%. Thus:
Morale 5: -10%
Morale 4: no change
Morale 3: +10%
Morale 2: +20%
Fearless or Morale "--": +30%
As Bissler mentioned, the Command radius varies between Orks and Guard, so they should have different costs. Tyranids also have limited Command radii, but these vary depending on the model. I suggest:
Guard: -10%
Tyranid: -15%
Ork: -20%
Models with Independent or Robotic ignore this discount.
As a baseline, perhaps a Company should receive a 10% discount on the cost of the Support Formations that comprise it. Also, it may have Command unit(s) up to a maximum value of 10% (could be 20%, probably not higher than that though) of the final formation cost. If it does not choose to have a free Command model (or three), it may designate one model to be such at no extra cost. (Gains the HQ ability for free.)
A Special Formation could receive a 20% discount to the final formation cost IF the primary model (excluding transport) is not found in any other formation in that Faction. If it does contain non-unique non-transport models, it could receive a discount just because of being a Special, but should only be 10% in that case, and in any event should have some other difference from a Support Formation.
Examples:
A Tactical Marine currently costs 26 points in the new system (different from posted way above due to removing Morale value from unit costs). [If Transport costs 5 per] A Rhino costs 34. A Support Formation of six Tactical Marines and three Rhino would thus cost (26*6=156; 34*3=102; 156+102=) 258 base.
A Company of three formations of Tactical Marines would have a base cost of (258*3=) 774.
Break Point of 50% is no modifier; Morale of 2 is +20% or +154.8; No Command is no modifier; Company gives -10% or -77.4; so final Formation cost is (774+154.8-77.4=) 851, which rounds to 850. It may take free Command units, and selects a Marine HQ (80) and a Rhino (34). These are 114, which is above 10% but lower than 20%, so it's probably good. Thus we have the basic NetEpic Marine Company for only 100 points more than in NetEpic Gold.
A Tactical Guardsman costs 10 in this system, and a Chimera is 42.5.
A Support formation with ten Tactical, of whom one is a SHQ (+15), is thus 115 base. BP of 5 is no mod; Morale 4 is no mod; Being Guard is -10% or -12; Support is no mod; so final formation cost is 103, rounds to 105.
A Tactical Company of three formations would be (105+105+105=315-32=) 283, which rounds to 285. Having a Tactical CHQ (33) should be free. Adding a Commissar (74.1) and Chimera (42.5) should probably not be.
A Support Formation with five Chimera (one SHQ) is thus 227.5 base. BP of 3 is 10% over half so +10% or +22.8; Morale 4; Guard -10% or -22.8; Support; so final is 227.5 or 230.
Thus a Mechanized Tactical Support formation would be (105+230=) 335, or 320 if only one model is SHQ.
Of course, all of the above is only my opinion. Since primarch has stated his opinion and I've stated mine, what do others think?
