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The Great Points Formula Debate!

 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:42 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I am loosing interest in typing up all of these columns, so I'm just going to do A (Base) and F (all Tweaks) for the remaining Factions. If there is a problem with a model or formation, I can always post more details for that one.

Frankly, it is probably about time that more Factions had one (or more) Support formations that work out as Free. I imagine that most of the models that are having zero (or negative) costs are very rarely used anyway. This just might get someone to take a formation here and there.


Hi!

This perfectly fine Magnus, I think we are having a better grasp on how the formula works, so just short-handing it as base and final values is fine. :)

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:58 am 
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All of this reminds me of the original Rogue Trader 40K rules.


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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:05 am 
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Well, I've been a bit slow to update things. Right, the following are the thoughts I'm having on this at the moment. As usual, I'd like to get opinions on these.

Due to the needs of Platinum, the rules for Transport need to be altered.

The way the base cost is calculated is being reworded to allow greater flexibility to the number of stands that can be carried. This is changing to: "The base cost of Transport is equal to 1/2 a point per stand carried per 5cm of Move that the Vehicle has." This cost allows the model to carry non-Bulky Infantry stands only. Honestly, I'm not certain whether the base cost should be half a point (0.5) or a quarter of a point (0.25). While it could be a whole point per stand per 5cm, this could result in higher costs than we probably want.

Adding the ability for the model to carry other types of stands, Vehicles, or even Titans would then either add a fixed amount to the base cost, or would multiply it by some number or other (probably just doubling each time; IE adding in the base value for each added type).

Hmm, for that matter, normal Infantry would not necessarily have to be the 'default' type carried. There could be no default, and just add values for each type. This would make building certain models (notably the Squat Robot Command Vehicle) easier and make the system more flexible.

As the base cost covers non-Bulky Infantry only, it should probably be a quarter (0.25) of a point as otherwise the costs of NEG models is going to go up significantly. This is because NEG assumes that all models with Transport (unless stated otherwise) can carry Bulky Infantry, Walker, and Light Artillery / Support Weapon stands as well as normal Infantry, albeit at 1 per 2 normal Infantry stands. Admittedly, I did make Walker an option in the version above, but the other two were still assumed. As this is changing to no longer be the case, the base cost should probably be lower than it was before. Possibly even as low as one fifth (0.2) of a point.

At the moment, I'm thinking that the base cost should be good up to six stands. The next step after 6 stands would be one Detachment for double the base cost of six stands. The next step would be one Company for double the cost of a Detachment.

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:54 pm 
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Hi!

I like the idea of no default and adding values for each type. As you mention that provides flexibility. I also favor a base cost for up to 6 stands and double up to company size.

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:47 am 
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Right, I've worked up some numbers for revision three of the Transport rules. Any and all feedback is appreciated. I've also rearranged things a bit into what, I hope, is a somewhat clearer order of operations.
__________________________________

Transport
Adding the Transport ability to a model means that it is able to carry other models about the battlefield in relative safety. Generally this is given to models that move faster than the carried stands/models do, but this is not required. The Transport ability requires that the model with Transport be Vehicle class or higher. Exceptions will be noted.

To determine the cost of Transport, you must know a few things.
1. What do you want this model to carry?
2. How much does it carry?
3. What is the Move of the model?

The initial cost of Transport is one (1) point.

1. This model carries:
Cost _ Stand or Model type to be Transported (Select up to one option from each category)
A. Infantry
A1 _ Non Bulky only
_0.5 __ may carry one stand per slot
_0.75 _ may carry three stands per two slots
_ 1 ___ may carry two stands per slot
_ 1 ___ may carry one stand per slot, including Greater Daemon
A2 _ Bulky when also carries Non-Bulky (requires any Non-Bulky capacity)
_0.5 __ may carry one stand per two slots
_0.75 _ may carry three stands per four slots
_ 1 ___ may carry one stand per slot
A3 _ Bulky only (does not carry Non-Bulky Infantry)
_0.75 _ may carry one stand per two slots
_ 1 ___ may carry three stands per four slots
_ 1.5 _ may carry one stand per slot
B. Support Weapon / Light Artillery
_0.25 _ may carry/tow one stand without using any slots (if this is the only type carried, must purchase 1 slot of capacity)
_0.5 __ may carry/tow one stand per two slots
_0.75 _ may carry/tow one stand per slot
C. Walker
_0.5 __ may carry one stand per two slots
_0.75 _ may carry two stands per three slots
_ 1 ___ may carry one stand per slot
D. Cavalry
_0.5 __ may carry one stand per two slots
_ 1 ___ may carry one stand per slot
E. Vehicle, including Heavy Artillery (requires Super Heavy)
_ 1 ___ may carry one model per four slots
_ 2 ___ may carry one model per three slots
_ 4 ___ may carry one model per two slots
F. Flyer or Floater, but not Super Heavy (requires Super Heavy type and Vehicle carried)
_ 1 ___ may carry one model per four slots
_ 2 ___ may carry one model per three slots
_ 4 ___ may carry one model per two slots
G. Knight (requires Praetorian type)
_ 2 ___ may carry one model per six slots or three per detachment
H. Super Heavy (requires Praetorian type)
_ 2 ___ may carry one model per Detachment
I. Titan (requires Praetorian type)
_ 2 ___ Scout (Warhound, Revenant, Mekboy, etc) may carry one model per Detachment
_ 3 ___ Battle (Reaver, Warlord, Phantom, Slasha, etc) may carry one model per Company
_ 4 ___ Mega (Imperator, Mega-Gargant) may carry one model per Company

2. This model's capacity is: (Select one of the following)
_ Cost _ Capacity (type required if higher than Vehicle)
_ 0.25 _ one slot
_ 0.5 __ two slots
_ 0.75 _ three slots
_ 1 ____ four slots
_ 1.25 _ five slots (Super Heavy)
_ 1.5 __ five slots
_ 1.5 __ six slots (Super Heavy)
_ 1.75 _ six slots
_ 3 ____ one Detachment (Super Heavy)
_ 4 ____ one Detachment
_ 6 ____ one Company (Praetorian) add Cost again for each additional Company
_ 9 ____ one Company (Super Heavy) add Cost again for each additional Company


3. Movement rate.
The modifier for Move is equal to the Move of the model with Transport divided by ten.
Add the following to the Move value before multiplying:
Skimmer (no pop-up): 1.5
Skimmer: 2
Support Craft: 2.5
Flyer: 3
Floater: 3
Agile: 2
Tunneler: 1.5
Command or always on Charge: 2
does not double Move on Charge: 0.5
Assault Ramp: 2
Deep Strike: 2

Once all modifiers are known / selected, add together the base of one point and all values from 1 and 2 above, then multiply that sum by the value from 3.

Examples
A NEG Rhino can carry:
Infantry @ 1 per slot: 0.5 (as the Bulky ability does not exist in Gold, it ignores those)
Light Artillery @ 1 per 2 slots: 0.5
Walker @ 1 per 2 slots: 0.5
It has 2 slots: 0.5
Thus it's base cost (before Move adjustment) is 3 (1 + 0.5+ 0.5+ 0.5+ 0.5).
It's Move is 25cm. Dividing Move by 10 equals 2.5.
Final cost of Transport is 7.5 (3 * 2.5).

A NetEpic Platinum Rhino can carry:
Non-Bulky Infantry @ 1 per slot: 0.5
It has 2 slots: 0.5
Base cost is 2 (1 + 0.5 + 0.5).
Move is 25cm, so 2.5 is the Move modifier.
Final cost (of Transport) is 5 (2 * 2.5).

A NetEpic Gold Thunderhawk can carry:
Infantry @ 1 per slot: 0.5
Light Artillery @ 1 per two slots: 0.5
Walker @ two per three slots: 0.75
It has six slots and is a Vehicle: 1.75
Base cost is 4.5 (1 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.75 + 1.75).
Move is 100cm, so 10 for base to which we add +3 for Flyer for a value of 13.
Final Transport cost is 58.5 (4.5 * 13).

A NetEpic Platinum Thunderhawk (Assault Gunship) can carry:
Non-Bulky Infantry @ 1 per slot: 0.5
Bulky Infantry @ 1 per 2 slots: 0.5
Cavalry @ 1 stand per slot: 1
Walker @ 1 stand per slot: 1
Support Weapon @ 1 per slot: 0.75
It has six slots and is a Vehicle: 1.75
Base cost is 6.5 (1 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 1 + 1 + 0.75 + 1.75).
Move is 100cm, so 10 to which we add +3 for Flyer & +2 for Assault Ramp for a value of 15.
Final Transport cost is 97.5 (6.5 * 15).
Mattman's example Thunderhawk at the top of page five of the "NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats" thread does not specify which sub-type of Thunderhawk it applies to, thus the above may be slightly wrong.

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Last edited by MagnusIlluminus on Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:26 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:05 pm 
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I just realized that some of my base assumptions about the Transport ability in NetEpic Gold were slightly off. I just re-read the description of Transport in the NetEpic Gold core rules pdf and compared to the rules in the Titan Legions rulebook and in the Space Marine 2nd edition rulebook to be sure.

None of those sources specifically state that the Transport ability allows the Walker type to be carried. Admittedly, the NEG core does have an Optional Rule that allows Walker to count as two stands, but it does not state whether they normally count as one stand or if they normally cannot be carried at all. My view has been that Walker counting as two stands was baseline standard for 2nd/TL but I cannot at the moment find where I got that from.

Similarly with Light Artillery. It is my memory that being able to tow a single LA stand was baseline normal for 2nd/TL rules, but cannot find the source for that. While NEG actually does specifically mention this, in NEG towing 1 stand is in addition to any normal capacity instead of replacing it!

I probably got these views from various White Dwarf Q&A articles, but those are all buried at the moment so I cannot verify that. While these realizations don't have much effect on the proposed system above, I need to add one more entry to LA/SW to allow for not using slots.

Oh, to be more specific I'd like to get an opinion from people as to what is/should be the default for whether or not Transport can hold Walker in NEG and at what ratio. In other words, what do you use in your games?

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:27 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I just realized that some of my base assumptions about the Transport ability in NetEpic Gold were slightly off. I just re-read the description of Transport in the NetEpic Gold core rules pdf and compared to the rules in the Titan Legions rulebook and in the Space Marine 2nd edition rulebook to be sure.

None of those sources specifically state that the Transport ability allows the Walker type to be carried. Admittedly, the NEG core does have an Optional Rule that allows Walker to count as two stands, but it does not state whether they normally count as one stand or if they normally cannot be carried at all. My view has been that Walker counting as two stands was baseline standard for 2nd/TL but I cannot at the moment find where I got that from.

Similarly with Light Artillery. It is my memory that being able to tow a single LA stand was baseline normal for 2nd/TL rules, but cannot find the source for that. While NEG actually does specifically mention this, in NEG towing 1 stand is in addition to any normal capacity instead of replacing it!

I probably got these views from various White Dwarf Q&A articles, but those are all buried at the moment so I cannot verify that. While these realizations don't have much effect on the proposed system above, I need to add one more entry to LA/SW to allow for not using slots.

Oh, to be more specific I'd like to get an opinion from people as to what is/should be the default for whether or not Transport can hold Walker in NEG and at what ratio. In other words, what do you use in your games?


Hi!

My opinion is that they can transport walkers at a cost of two "infantry stands".

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:34 am 
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That all looks good Magnus, should cover all bases (no pun intended).

I know we talked about LA/Support Weapons and Walkers in the marine thread, and whether they should be bulky, but as long as it is clear what can and can't carry them i.e not allowing them in rhinos, land raiders etc, can be carried by THawks or other large transports, then I don't think they need to be bulky. They are both supposed to take up the space of 5 normal marines, but can only be carried by the larger vehicles (apart from the anomaly that is the drop pod which only carry a single walker/LA even though it can carry ten men).

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:41 am 
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Yeah, putting 'Bulky' on LA/SW or Walker is now entirely irrelevant.

Actually, in NEG a LA takes up no slots, though that would presumably only hold for ground vehicles, as it is towed behind and not held within the vehicle. In NEG the default for Walker seems to be two slots, or in other words 10 men. I have the feeling that Walker taking up just one slot (5 men) is specifically and only for the Thunderhawk, as the Drop Pod seems to use the more "normal" ratio of one Walker per two slots (IE 10 men).

Obviously, the exact amounts that a given model with Transport can carry and at what capacity will have to be specifically listed in the text portion of the 'models' document, as trying to abbreviate every possible combination will get tedious quite quickly and will not really save much space. For example, the abbreviated form of the Special Ability for the NEP Thunderhawk in the example above would have to look something like:
Transport 6 [I1/1;B1/2;C1/1;W1/1;SW1/1]

It seems like it would be much easier to just show "Transport 6" and have the details listed elsewhere. On the other hand, NEP is your thing, so list it how you think will work well and people will understand it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:02 pm 
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No problem, will have a think about the best way to show the transport options.


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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:23 am 
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Added a modifier for Deep Strike.

Edit: Also added an option for Infantry that includes Greater Daemon.

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