Hi Matty,

First all of apologies for not responding sooner, I had neglected to check this thread for a few weeks which is very poor form indeed.

I wouldn't have any objection to anyone retaining the orders phase and tying their units into orders as was always the case for other versions of Net Epic & 2nd edition. I did expect some players would want to do so and fully understand and respect why players such as yourself and Nuka would prefer to retain the orders phase. It's just not the way I personally would play it but neither would it would be a big problem if others did play that way. In the early days of Evolution that is exactly how I played! I just felt that as I played more and more Evolution that a more reactive way of ordering would be preferable but that doesn't mean that others have to follow that blueprint.

I'll make a point of perhaps adding an optional rule for this at the end of the document.

So far as how it would work, it would be a really easy fix. You would just slot the orders phase in at the start of the turn and order as you would have under previous editions. As the Action Phase got underway, you would still take turns activating although you would be tied into the orders you placed at the start of the turn. That's it!

It's a really simple change but in actual fact makes significant differences to how the game goes. If you do decide to try it out, please let me know what you think!

Cheers!

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Cheers mate, thanks for the well thought out response.
The main issue I see is with transports and embarked units. We'd probably play it so they can both activate as one action, even if they have different orders. Otherwise they're just sitting ducks, possibly with bad orders, which is too much of a penalty. If I'm giving my guys dodgy orders, the least I could is let them try and complete them without getting blown away after the transports move, but before they can disembark.
Something to think on anyway.

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.'.
http://ragged-they-kill.blogspot.com.au/

That's an excellent point and I'm annoyed at myself for not picking up on it when I reworked the rules as it is something I recognised as a problem and have already rectified in play. It's too much of a disadvantage to have your troops stuck in your transports for a full activation when they could be jumped by enemy units such as bikes etc. For units which already have their own transports this isn't a problem because they would already all move and fire in the same activation but it is if you are transporting say Striking Scorpions in Falcon Grav Tanks.

So here is how I play it:

Transports & Activations: if a transport is carrying troops both the transport and the troops both act in the same activation. After the troops have disembarked, if the transports and troops are part of the same unit, they will continue to be activated in the same activation in future turns. If the transports were carrying troops which are not part of their unit, both the transport and the troops will be activated on separate activations in subsequent turns. If troops were then picked up again by a transport that was not part of their unit then both they and the transport would once again act in the same activation until such time as they were dropped off.

I'm not sure I've worded this well, what do you think?

This is all great stuff Matty and is exactly the kind of points that I hoped people would throw at me. I knew there would be things I would have gotten wrong or missed when I reworked the Gold document. Please keep them coming if you spot anything else that is unclear or a problem!

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Sounds good mate.
The only other thing I can think of at the moment is the "this unit gets to activate last" mechanic, where quite a lot of units may be activated last.
An alternative (for those of us who have an orders phase ) might be to allow these units to change their orders on activation, rather than (potentially) having heaps of units all activate last.
Not sure what a good alternative would be for you "orders when activated" types. Going last is pretty tasty, but I'm not sure how you would manage it if each player had 5 units that were all activated last. They probably need to alternate, rather than being simultaneous.
Need to think more on that one.

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.'.
http://ragged-they-kill.blogspot.com.au/

Ha! Yeah, it had occurred to me about the moving last thing and you've obviously spotted why I did it. It's not the most satisfactory solution - it's a bit clunky in fact - but as you point out its tricky trying to find something that will work with the order as you go system that I prefer. I know there are a number of units with the ability but in a standard game I'm not too sure how many would actually be in play, so would it be a big problem? Sometimes I suppose is the answer. It's definitely one that's stumped me.

I think your fix if you were playing it with the orders phase would work very well.

I think at this stage I might mention why I dispensed with the orders phase as it wasn't always the case with early trials of Evolution. The main reason is that I felt that it was better fun to play more reactively, but the other reason was that in eliminating the movement FF & and Advance firing phases I felt the game had a better flow and less moments where it felt like nothing much was happening. The orders phase was the last part of the game where I felt that happened. Now when the turn starts it feels like it's straight back into the action...

Just because I think it improved things doesn't mean that I disapprove of players reintroducing the orders phase though. I'm delighted if anyone tries out Evolution and applies their own house rules. It's a pretty cool thing to think that someone is having fun playing my version of the rules! Please let me know how you get on if you have a game!

Cheers!

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With the latest updates on Magnus' formulas now showing on many if not all of the army threads (I'm not sure, Magnus will be better placed to indicate if that is the case), I'd like to confirm that for the foreseeable future, and hopefully permanently, I'll be playing Evolution with the new points costings.

I actually think that the formula may actually compliment Evolution very well although I know that wasn't the thinking behind the project. Why do I say this? Please read on...

What we have found through the extensive playtesting of Evolution is that the game not only plays slightly faster but is more deadly and the carnage and destruction mounts up faster than was the case with Gold & previous editions. With many of the units seeing a reduction in cost and therefore VPs, this means both that you get more bang for your buck army wise but also that the VP yield will not be as great for companies. In practice this will mean that to win the game, players will have to break a larger spread of units which because of the carnage-heavy nature of Evolution will actually be desirable.

I'm really looking forward to many more games using the Points Formula for Evolution - exciting times!

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All of the Gold armies that I have been doing are updated to V0.325. I have not been doing anything with Dark Eldar, Exodites, Slann, or the majority of specific Chapters, Craftworlds, etc. Aside from those few lists, everything of Gold should be updated. Let me know if anything is not.

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Hi!

I should be able to finalize the comparison file today then.

Primarch

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Primarch


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Hi Peter, was the 3.25 update completed on your comparison file?

In other news, Evolution continues to perform well. I've got a large battle planned this weekend and hope to do a fairly extensive battle report on it.

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Hi!

Yes. The comparison file has the gold, the first formula value and the 3.25 version.

Primarch

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Primarch


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Excellent, cheers!

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Can't wait!

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.'.
http://ragged-they-kill.blogspot.com.au/

Had another Evolution battle tonight in which I tested out the Squats in a 3K against the Eldar, using Magnus' new points formula.

Squat Army list:

Warrior Brotherhood 659
Air Attack Corps 562

2 x Iron Eagle Squadrons 500
Rapier Battery 51

Cyclops 636
Land Train with 4 standard cars 614


Brief report:

Fighting against the Eldar with Squats is always a difficult prospect. It's largely due to the lack of mobile forces that the Squats possess in stark contrast to the rapid moving Eldar. Because of this my plan was to deploy my entire army down one half of the board. Forfeiting one half of the board would mean handing several objectives to the Eldar without any resistance but I figured that by keeping my force compact I could concentrate on destroying one flank before the remaining Eldar were able to get into the battle.

The plan worked to an extent; I managed to break many of Craig's Eldar units (hopefully he will be able to provide more detail as to what broke) but only being able to take 2 objectives at the end of turn 2 (an improvement from only one objective in Turn 1!) was simply not enough. Coupled with my Squat troops getting jumped by Jet-Bikes and Striking Scorpions and slaughtered with ease which broke the Warrior Brotherhood and my Air Attack Corps finally being defeated after soaking up a lot of incoming fire there was no way I could stop the Eldar!

In the end the VP tally was a convincing win for the Eldar although had I been more fortunate with the Tempest Host which was hanging on from breaking with a damaged Tempest and the Cyclops' Hellfury Cannon being denied by a Revenant Holo-field save, then the score would have looked more respectable. I still doubt even a draw would have been the outcome though.

Broken units:

Warrior Brotherhood
Air Attack Corps
Iron Eagle Squadron
Rapier Battery

Observations:

I have no regrets about either my army selection or my tactics. Spreading my force across a wider area would only have resulted in my units being overwhelmed piecemeal and not inflicting the same level of casualties upon the Eldar. I exceeded my own pre-battle expectations so can't complain!

From the point of view of the points formula for Squats, it's too early to say for sure how well the system will work although I have my concerns. This was always the case when I looked at the revised costings and my playtest has reinforced those views.

A 3K battle against Eldar would have been a tough prospect under old costings but this was made worse by the new formula; I felt unable to buy bikes because of the high cost so I compromised by purchasing Gyrocopters. My force worked out almost exactly the same under the new costings as would have been the case with the old ones but Craig was able to get 4,000 points worth of Eldar under the old costings. That's a big difference. Usually I would expect the Squats to perform better for larger battles as the points are increased but when you consider that taking a Bike Company and an additional Collosus would set you back 2K then that's unlikely to be the case.

On the other hand, I did always think Squats were overpowered and many units should cost more. The question is has the formula taken them too far the other way?

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An interesting post. If you don't mind listing it, what was the exact composition of the Eldar force?

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I know roughly what was there but I'll let Craig M999 post this himself to ensure accuracy - as well as his own thoughts on proceedings.

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