The Bissler wrote:
primarch wrote:
The Bissler wrote:
primarch wrote:
splash wrote:
I like this "fog of war" idea, but I think #1 is a bit better--and will cause less game-mechanics problems. Though I do like #2 as well, just not as much.
You could also use a rule where a hidden is revealed even before they activate if an enemy unit gets within X range of them, thus spotting them visually and the targeting equipment takes over from that point on.
Hi!
This would have to be added in order for either to really work well. Of course at this point its looking a lot like SM1 hidden counters use and rules. Not a bad thing, but you could just use those with some modifications.
Primarch
It's totally up to players if they want to have their units hidden, most likely by drawing a map of the battlefield and noting down where their units start. I have no problem with that but it isn't really the purpose of the Fog of War. Instead, I expect players to place their models and units in plain view as normal, it's just that they can't fire at units covered by Fog of War (see my Titan example above, I don't want the situation where units are being destroyed before they have even had the chance to move).
Hi!
There is no real way around the issue of "fire first and kill" in a combined activation mechanic without the adjusting of ranges. You'll find yourself as you do now, having to add "amendments" to a problem without addressing the real issue - range.
Changing the stock rules by making combined activations is not a trivial change. Even when net epic changed the original "IGOUGO" it saw an impact on not only how the game was played, but how different units interact with the rule system.
You can't change something as integral as the turn sequence and not expect something to go awry. The whole initiative shooting first thing is one example, but you and I have run into others like how certain abilities work and are balanced (deep strike, infiltrate) or how close combat works (which trying to integrate that in one activation causes all sorts of headache) amongst other things.
I think, like the standard game you need to take the good with the bad and first shot kills is something you need to live with because granting a whole army "immunity" on turn one, until they activate is a little too contrived for my tastes and penalizes some armies more than others (no massive turn one mycetic spore drops for tyranids).
Its the principal of unintended consequences. I just see way too many with the "hidden" until activated rule. I would just "live with" the first shot first kill scenario.
Of course I would just rather overhaul ranges.
Primarch
I'll hopefully be playing Warhead's Tyranids next week - would have been last night were it not for this damn viral infection. Because I've never seen them in action I don't have any idea how they'd operate in Evolution. I'll think about it after that.
It's not ideal but I don't feel the contrivance to be a problem so long as it works in play which it seems to for Marines, IG, Eldar, Chaos, Orks & Squats all of which have been play tested to lesser or greater degrees under this system now.
I have no issue with players doing as they wish but personally I'd be furious if a Titan armed up with Volcano/Quake Cannon and wiped out a huge number of my troops being carried by transports before they'd even entered play.
Hi!
Its annoying, true. But no more so than 1 turn knockouts due to massive airdrops or certain unique weaponry (vortex, warp, etc). You just need to adapt your placement and tactics.
You game with chaos for example (where the concern derives from), there should have been terrain to hide wierdboy towers behind, or heck hide behind a gargant (my preferred method). There are many way to hide assets without having to use a rule to do so.
Of course, it all comes down to the same two things. Range and cost.
2nd edition space marine on its own was a good game, because it was basic enough and the options were few enough not to run into problems. The SM and ork units in that game on average do not surpass a range of 75cm. Given the units involved not many problems will be experienced.
However once you add in the rest those two variables become manifest and quick frankly cumbersome.
So you have two issues mucking it all up. If you want ranges to stay the way they are then at least do not use the stock points cost system. Using both compounds the problem.
There is NO WAY Magnus is worth 600 points. What he can do is disproportionate with the cost. I bet he would not have even been fielded if his true cost (over 1000 points) was enforced. Combine the ridiculously low cost to his 100cm range and then on top of that give him unified activation, are we really surprised on what happened in the game? I'm not.
Of course not everyone wants to tinker and change what is necessary to make the mechanics compliment each other, which is fine. Time is a finite resource that is probably better spent playing the game rather than redesigning it. However holes like this one will pop up (continuously), so just put up with them and move on. Someday you'll be on the receiving end and some days you'll do the pounding. It all evens out eventually.
In the end if you and your opponent are okay with things that is all that really matters.
Primarch
