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Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules & Video Tutorial

 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:25 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
I've just realised how to fix this. The save carries over from the previous turn until the Titan is activated during the current turn; at that stage the movement will redetermine the save on the current turn again.

Yes, I know I'm talking to myself.

No problem, good solution!


Hi!

Why wouldn't you assume that whatever was it's save from the previous turn would be the current one?

A turn is just an artificial construct. The phantom (as any model) is constantly in motion from its previous turn. Just because it ends its "turn" doesn't mean it stopped moving. It only means its opportunity to seize initiative has ended for the time being.


So yes, same save of the turn before unless it suffered damage that means it has stopped moving or holofields don't work. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:35 pm 
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One point: I don't think the FF bonus should carry over to the next turn, agreed?

i.e. Phantom Titan does it's customary charge & ff in turn 1. Enemy units gain a +1 when they fire to hit the Phantom Titan for the rest of the turn*. In turn 2, the Phantom still counts as gaining the same holofield save from the previous turn but enemy units no longer gain the +1 bonus on rolls to hit until such time as the Phantom performs its activation again.

*Titans and HQ units instances where I feel the FF bonus is very difficult to justify, but on the other hand I prefer to keep the rules simple rather than having a situation where it is that you "get a +1 bonus except in the following circumstances". Keep it simple I reckon.

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:00 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
One point: I don't think the FF bonus should carry over to the next turn, agreed?

i.e. Phantom Titan does it's customary charge & ff in turn 1. Enemy units gain a +1 when they fire to hit the Phantom Titan for the rest of the turn*. In turn 2, the Phantom still counts as gaining the same holofield save from the previous turn but enemy units no longer gain the +1 bonus on rolls to hit until such time as the Phantom performs its activation again.

*Titans and HQ units instances where I feel the FF bonus is very difficult to justify, but on the other hand I prefer to keep the rules simple rather than having a situation where it is that you "get a +1 bonus except in the following circumstances". Keep it simple I reckon.


Hi!

Agreed. The order is for ONE turn. You clean up all effects at the turns end. So just because you are on first fire the first turn it doesn't mean you get a bonus against them the next turn.

Remember that HQ and titans also get the disadvantage for being on first fire which is the enemy get a bonus to fire at them.

I found that especially with HQ units you may not want to first fire since that makes them easier to hit.

I think the trade offs are fine as they stand. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:38 pm 
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primarch wrote:
Remember that HQ and titans also get the disadvantage for being on first fire which is the enemy get a bonus to fire at them.

I found that especially with HQ units you may not want to first fire since that makes them easier to hit.

I think the trade offs are fine as they stand.


Yip, this is what I was getting at, I think it is hard to justify the FF disadvantage for Titans & HQs because they have been on the move and haven't been stationary like other units that First Fire. But the main thing is that it works! Sometimes that's more important than cold hard logic! Not often, but sometimes. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:14 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
primarch wrote:
Remember that HQ and titans also get the disadvantage for being on first fire which is the enemy get a bonus to fire at them.

I found that especially with HQ units you may not want to first fire since that makes them easier to hit.

I think the trade offs are fine as they stand.


Yip, this is what I was getting at, I think it is hard to justify the FF disadvantage for Titans & HQs because they have been on the move and haven't been stationary like other units that First Fire. But the main thing is that it works! Sometimes that's more important than cold hard logic! Not often, but sometimes. :)


Hi!

I try to use logic when it doesn't get in the way of the game play.

Having testing it, I would leave it as is. Its simple and its functional. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:05 pm 
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Following on from the discussion on the Alternative Plasma Rules thread I want to wish you every success with your rules project Primarch. My biggest concern is that it may be incredibly difficult getting players to take up on the idea.

Net Epic is the system that we all love, sure it has its flaws which is why we've all been trying to work out so many new rules, but at its core it is what we all know and love. I really believe that while most players are happy to fiddle with the rules, they do not wish to play an entirely different game. In my opinion it's the reason why we're still playing NetEpic and not E:A.

That's why I want to try pushing on with playtesting of NEE. I think it has the potential to correct a lot of the problems with the game, speed up play and add some more tactical conundrums to the system we are familiar with. And I'm hoping it can deliver those things and bring the Net Epic community with me.

Even still, I have my concerns about the viability of the project, mostly because - if rumour is correct and Epic is getting a GW reboot next year - people may start playing the as yet unpublished new system. It could be something that NetEpic players really like and therefore will start playing, meaning NEE is dead in the water.

I'm going to continue with NEE playtesting for now without the Alternative Plasma rules and see how it goes. While there are still issues to be resolved, I do feel they are in no way as extreme as the Titan charge/ff problem. I will continue to use DS' tables and will continue to play the game without the reactor in the front. The latter has been great for improving Titan reliability and I think may be the best move for making the Titans worth the points without making them overpowered.

Anyway, that's just my opinion! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:07 am 
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The Bissler wrote:
Following on from the discussion on the Alternative Plasma Rules thread I want to wish you every success with your rules project Primarch. My biggest concern is that it may be incredibly difficult getting players to take up on the idea.

Net Epic is the system that we all love, sure it has its flaws which is why we've all been trying to work out so many new rules, but at its core it is what we all know and love. I really believe that while most players are happy to fiddle with the rules, they do not wish to play an entirely different game. In my opinion it's the reason why we're still playing NetEpic and not E:A.

That's why I want to try pushing on with playtesting of NEE. I think it has the potential to correct a lot of the problems with the game, speed up play and add some more tactical conundrums to the system we are familiar with. And I'm hoping it can deliver those things and bring the Net Epic community with me.

Even still, I have my concerns about the viability of the project, mostly because - if rumour is correct and Epic is getting a GW reboot next year - people may start playing the as yet unpublished new system. It could be something that NetEpic players really like and therefore will start playing, meaning NEE is dead in the water.

I'm going to continue with NEE playtesting for now without the Alternative Plasma rules and see how it goes. While there are still issues to be resolved, I do feel they are in no way as extreme as the Titan charge/ff problem. I will continue to use DS' tables and will continue to play the game without the reactor in the front. The latter has been great for improving Titan reliability and I think may be the best move for making the Titans worth the points without making them overpowered.

Anyway, that's just my opinion! :)


Hi!

You maybe correct in that just eliminating the plasma system on titan (in other words back to orders) may be more than sufficient.

The alternate plasma system was designed for the standard game, so it really seems to work for that but not NEE.

So I would recommend dropping it and using orders. Its combined activation with no reactor in front, so I think that is advantage enough. :)

Another system I have doubts with is the alternate flyer rules. It works extremely well in the standard game, however once, more combined activations and fliers seems a little "too good". Not as bad as the plasma rules in NEE, but perhaps worrisome.

Continue to develop and test. I like the system myself and will just drop the plasma rules from it and perhaps tweak the flyer rules. I guess it was trying to add too many alternate systems at one go. ;)

As for a newly designed system, I'll do that on my own like I did Heresy. Anyone can comment and come along for the ride but it will be a side project. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:32 am 
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Another minor problem I've become aware of during playtesting:

As it stands, units being fired upon by Pop-Up attacks can only return fire at the popped-up unit through Snap Fire. In practice, this means that if you play against Eldar, you can run out of activations very quickly (you Snap Fire and then have to do a normal activation, essentially 2 activations for every 1 pop-up), and worse still, leave your force exposed if you have them on FF.

So, with that in mind, here's my proposal:

Pop-Up Attacks: A skimmer unit on First Fire may perform a Pop-Up attack. The vehicle moves 30cm up from board level and can fire at anything it can see - but not before enemy units have the chance to Snap Fire at it first. Despite being on First Fire orders, units making Pop-Up attacks do not gain a +1 on to hit rolls, but nor does they suffer from the +1 bonus that enemy units gain on rolls to hit such units. Once the Pop-Up attack has been completed, the skimmer begins to descend to ground level (and out of sight if behind cover). The Skimmer is treated as still being elevated during the enemy player's activation, but is at grond level thereafter. Note that even during enemy activation, units firing upon Popped-Up units still incur the Snap Fire penalty.

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:38 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
Another minor problem I've become aware of during playtesting:

As it stands, units being fired upon by Pop-Up attacks can only return fire at the popped-up unit through Snap Fire. In practice, this means that if you play against Eldar, you can run out of activations very quickly (you Snap Fire and then have to do a normal activation, essentially 2 activations for every 1 pop-up), and worse still, leave your force exposed if you have them on FF.

So, with that in mind, here's my proposal:

Pop-Up Attacks: A skimmer unit on First Fire may perform a Pop-Up attack. The vehicle moves 30cm up from board level and can fire at anything it can see - but not before enemy units have the chance to Snap Fire at it first. Despite being on First Fire orders, units making Pop-Up attacks do not gain a +1 on to hit rolls, but nor does they suffer from the +1 bonus that enemy units gain on rolls to hit such units. Once the Pop-Up attack has been completed, the skimmer begins to descend to ground level (and out of sight if behind cover). The Skimmer is treated as still being elevated during the enemy player's activation, but is at grond level thereafter. Note that even during enemy activation, units firing upon Popped-Up units still incur the Snap Fire penalty.


Hi!

When I played my game, I thought of the same thing.

I would word it as such:

"formations that perform a pop-up maneuver must be on first fire orders. However they do not receive the +1 bonus to fire or grant the +1 bonus to fire at them (no bonus or penalty). Formations that perform a pop up maneuver remain visible until the end of the opponents NEXT ACTIVATION."

This means the opponent must be quick and immediately fire at them in their next activation or miss the opportunity to fire at them before they descend and hide once more.

Thoughts?

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:55 pm 
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Spot on! Thank you! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:37 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
Spot on! Thank you! :D


Hi!

It's always good when we get a simple fix. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:45 pm 
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Yep!


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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:59 am 
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I'm toying with the idea of introducing a -1 to hit charging units. I've got a feeling this may have been the rule for 1st Edition Space Marine but my thinking is that, like FF this would mean there would be an advantage to charging (other than movement) as well as a disadvantage (no firing at all).

Given that Evolution is already a system in which modifiers to firing are already in place (+1 if on FF, +1 to hit units on FF), I don't think this would be too out of place for the system.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:36 am 
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Hi!

You are correct that charge in AT had a -1. I never was fond of titans on charge in second edition/net epic can fire. It makes the order a complete waste beyond charging into combat.

Given the other movement modifications that were recommended, a -1 for charge is the way to go, not only for titans, but I think in general. It stimulates maneuver and places a good penalty for the flexibility.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:55 am 
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Yep, -1 for everyone was my intention. Quick follow up question though, what about units such as Warhounds that already get a -1 to hit when charging? Make it cumulative? -2?

Sadly my video battle is well underway so this rule isn't being implemented for that report.

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