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Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables

 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:57 pm 
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I'm kinda the opposite. I don't much like titans and would rather see them taken down a peg or two.

On the other hand, other than the fact that titans are giant walkers and praetorians are giant vehicles I'm not all that clear what the real difference is between the two. It seems to be just a semantic difference to make "titans" seem special.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:53 pm 
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ForgottenLore wrote:
I'm kinda the opposite. I don't much like titans and would rather see them taken down a peg or two.

On the other hand, other than the fact that titans are giant walkers and praetorians are giant vehicles I'm not all that clear what the real difference is between the two. It seems to be just a semantic difference to make "titans" seem special.


Hi!

Your a rare bird in the epic world ForgottenLore. ;)

Titans are what started the game and thus hold a certain place in people's hearts and consciousness.

From a purely objective point of view you are absolutely correct that there is little difference between them and praetorians. Not that most epic fans would admit it though. ;)

Having played original AT really skews the view on them though. Having played it extensively, I am still trying to get them to that level of power (the alternate plasma systems seem to have gotten close though).

I think those whom are not similarly biased are okay with titans just being "another unit".

Unfortunately we vastly outnumber you! :P ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:14 pm 
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primarch wrote:
Unfortunately we vastly outnumber you!


Heh.

Yeah. I never played Adeptus Titanicus extensively, but it was what introduced me to epic scale stuff. I was thrilled when Space Marine came out though because it was going to let me play a game that seemed, well, epic, with HUGE armies of guys instead of a game with 3 models per side that felt like a small skirmish game with oddly shaped people.

Unfortunately I never got the chance since I went off to college and the one guy I knew who might have been willing to play went somewhere else.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:35 pm 
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ForgottenLore wrote:
primarch wrote:
Unfortunately we vastly outnumber you!


Heh.

Yeah. I never played Adeptus Titanicus extensively, but it was what introduced me to epic scale stuff. I was thrilled when Space Marine came out though because it was going to let me play a game that seemed, well, epic, with HUGE armies of guys instead of a game with 3 models per side that felt like a small skirmish game with oddly shaped people.

Unfortunately I never got the chance since I went off to college and the one guy I knew who might have been willing to play went somewhere else.


Hi!

It's kind of funny that the game I really wanted from the start WAS second edition space marine. A game where you could field vast armies of infantry and armor, not just titans.

More importantly a game where the mechanics were roughly the same across the board. Second edition did that.

While titan to titan warfare was better in AT, the rules for mixed conflicts with titans and non-titans units were HORRIBLE. In that there is no comparison, space marine wins handily.

However it was a "shock" to see how fragile titans had become. It's been playing catchup ever since.

The struggle since then has been to get titans to an "AT" level or durability without sacrificing what space marine brought to the table. It been real hard.

Some of the newer stuff we've been testing has promise. Only time will tell how much. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:09 pm 
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I agree with you both! AT was great fun but I remember looking longingly at the box art and the pics which showed some miniature Space Marines and thinking "wouldn't this game be great if they added vehicles and troops". The idea of being able to field massive armies always appealed to me a lot more than the wee diddy skirmishes of WH40K. The very idea of it really appealed to the evil dictator in me. >:D

ForgottenLore wrote:
I'm kinda the opposite. I don't much like titans and would rather see them taken down a peg or two.


It's fair enough if you don't like Titans, the game will work just as well without them being used. So far as seeing them being brought down a peg or two, how often do you see Titans survive battles? Many of us feel that the high mortality rate among the Titan ranks reflects the fact that they are underpowered rather than overpowered.

I fully respect where you are coming from as there are some units in Epic that I couldn't care less about, but I'd politely ask that you reflect on the cost of buying Titans for an army. As things stood, Praetorians were much better than Titans for the points, so the way I see it, Primarch and Dwarf Supreme's respective (and very fine) projects have been about making Titans worth the high cost.

ForgottenLore wrote:
On the other hand, other than the fact that titans are giant walkers and praetorians are giant vehicles I'm not all that clear what the real difference is between the two. It seems to be just a semantic difference to make "titans" seem special.


For many of us they are the original and best icons of the game, and their inclusion is something that (once) completely seperated Epic from its Wendy-scale counterpart. Taking sentiment out of it, they really are just another unit you take to get the job done - but I'd reiterate the point that while we have referred to making Titans seem special again, they were underpowered for their value.

Anyway, that's just my opinion on the matter! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:34 am 
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ForgottenLore wrote:
I don't much like titans and would rather see them taken down a peg or two.

Burn, heretic, BURN! >:D ;D

I'll be the first to admit that sentimentality is a huge reason why I love playing Titans. That aside, in my opinion Titans are meant to be the most bad-ass, hardest thing to kill on an epic battlefield. The AT rules are excellent for titan vs titan battles, but for me pure titan vs titan battles aren't nearly as exciting as combined arms battles. That's why I like SM2 over AT/SM1, but with the advent of SM2 Titans became easier to kill. I can't tell you how many Warlords I lost through their reactors getting obliterated. That's my motivation for creating damage tables based on something besides d6.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:43 am 
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primarch wrote:
ForgottenLore wrote:
I haven't been following this too closely because it is rather more rules fiddly than I feel I can meaningfully comment on at the moment and also because my army of choice doesn't have any titans.

Which brings up the question, will we be getting these kind of tables for Praetorians as well?


Hi!

Good point. What do you think DS, shall I give it a go?

Primarch

Go for it if you want. I had thought about re-doing the damage tables for anything that has a hit template. I decided not to for two reasons: 1) laziness. I really didn't want to do all that work. 2). I really don't think Praerorians need 2d6 damage tables. They've gotten enough of a boost from when they only had a simple armor save. Plus, Titans are supposed to be harder to kill.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:08 am 
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Dwarf Supreme wrote:
primarch wrote:
ForgottenLore wrote:
I haven't been following this too closely because it is rather more rules fiddly than I feel I can meaningfully comment on at the moment and also because my army of choice doesn't have any titans.

Which brings up the question, will we be getting these kind of tables for Praetorians as well?


Hi!

Good point. What do you think DS, shall I give it a go?

Primarch

Go for it if you want. I had thought about re-doing the damage tables for anything that has a hit template. I decided not to for two reasons: 1) laziness. I really didn't want to do all that work. 2). I really don't think Praerorians need 2d6 damage tables. They've gotten enough of a boost from when they only had a simple armor save. Plus, Titans are supposed to be harder to kill.


Hi!

This was Bissler's take (which I agree with) and think Praetorians are fine as is. No expanded damage tables.

Those are just for titans.

Laziness rules!!! :P

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:16 am 
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primarch wrote:
Laziness rules!!! :P

Yay!!

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:32 am 
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It just occurred to me that there's a Titan have totally overlooked for re-doing its damage tables. Any guesses?

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:34 am 
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Dwarf Supreme wrote:
It just occurred to me that there's a Titan have totally overlooked for re-doing its damage tables. Any guesses?


Hi!

The Imperator? Mega-gargant?

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:19 am 
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Yup, the big guys. I'll come back to them after I complete the regular Titans.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:54 am 
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Dwarf Supreme wrote:
Yup, the big guys. I'll come back to them after I complete the regular Titans.


Hi!

Cool! ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:11 am 
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primarch wrote:
This was Bissler's take (which I agree with) and think Praetorians are fine as is. No expanded damage tables.

Those are just for titans.

Laziness rules!!!

I thought about rebutting this, but it just seemed like too much effort. ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarf Supreme Alternate Damage tables
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:51 am 
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Only just started looking at this topic, but will go back and read through properly, but my two pence on the bits I have read, I think it would be odd that praetorians wouldn't get expanded damage tables. If we are going to apply them to one thing, then really we should apply them to another. Hell, if we are going to use the tables for Warhounds and Revenants, most praetorians are way bigger than them and significantly more resilient.


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