Along the lines of the discussion that was had elsewhere concerning the miss-use of the term "Unit", it might be best to edit out all "Coy" and replace with "Company", if just for clarity.

Similarly, what does "2IC" mean? Is this a Horus Heresy term?

Coming up with points values will be difficult as you don't list how many models are in each detachment. Oh, wait, is the number of models silhouetted the number in the detachment? Ah, that somewhat makes sense, except they all seem too small. [You seem to be channeling Epic 40K rather than Space Marine 2nd. The former was dedicated to replicating 40K armies at the Epic scale, whereas Space Marine 2nd (and thus NetEpic) are more focused on larger-scale battles. Admittedly, Mattman has repeatedly said that Platinum would more closely represent 40K, but until now I thought that mostly just meant the units themselves. Not sure how I missed that. Ah well, no worries.]

Gotcha. That works. Yes, in that case you seem to be using the NetEpic Gold values per model, rather than any step or version of the Points Formula. This is not necessarily a problem, except that Platinum will not be using those values. If you want to continue using those values for the time being, while the format is being refined, go ahead and do with only one adjustment to what you have done so far. Once you have a 'final value' round off to the nearest multiple of 25. Thus a Sabre detachment would cost 100 rather than 105, the HQ tanks would be 150 rather than 140, etc.

That said, I'm not sure where you got 300 for a Thunderhawk from. The base NetEpic Gold value for that is 100. The Sicaran does not have stats that I know of, so it currently has no value in any file or list that I have posted. If you can get me stats for it, I can get you a points cost fairly quick.

Oh, another nit-pick. In game, the Marine army does not worry about any "Chain-of-Command" rules, so calling any models "Sergeant" is not necessary. If you want to call them that for flavor, that's fine, but it serves no in-game purpose so it might confuse some people.

I'm not familiar with the 'Horus Heresy book 1' that you speak of. Well, I know it exists, but I haven't read it. If the two of you are making an intentional change for Platinum (to the numbers of which types of Support / Special / whatever formations) that is fine. Otherwise, the standard limit of 5 Support formations should well cover your categories of "Company Assets" and "Battalion Assets" and the 1 Special formation should be sufficient to cover "Chapter Assets".

On the other hand, if you were intending to use the Points Formula, then things become slightly more complicated. That has it's own thread here in the 'Alternate rules' sub-forum. I'll put your formation sizes through that and get back to you with values in a later post. Also keep in mind that the Points Formula is still being tweaked, so any values provided may not be final.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

I just figured out "2IC". It would be "Second In Command". Yet another (I'm guessing) military term that Epic does not use. It is also irrelevant for Marines as unlike Guard they do not worry about chain of command issues.

I had another thought to preserve some of the flavor you have. While any Company should be limited to 5 Support formations, you could easily say something like: "... no more than two of which can be from the 'Battalion Support' list as the majority of a Tank Company's Support should be tanks."

Something similar could be done for Infantry Companies, but the other way around.

Oh, I think I see why the "Thunderhawk" in the Company Support list is 300. It is because you have the silhouette of an Imperial Dropship. The name on that entry should be changed, as it is not a Thunderhawk.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Cheers Magnus,
Second in command removed it will just be an option to add a second vehicle to bulk out the HQ. Company amended

Each silhouette represents a stand as you have stated i am working up a how to use document to better clarify how to use it. I believe you are correct in Mattman looking at formations reflecting current fluff but I believe that the options will still be available for current 2nd edition formations to be represented as shown in the alternate formation thread. This project is separate to his plans and those of platinum as they are awaiting other information till they are produced and it is Mattman’s bag. I have just offered my services to graphically represent his ideas.

In my reference document a company is listed as having 2-3 detachments each consisting of two tactical squads (each 20 men) and one support squad (10 men).

Company assets are listed as follows:
Heavy Support Squad (10-20 marines)
Assigned Veterans
Gunships
Rhinos
Tank Detachments
Support Weapon Batteries
Dreadnoughts
Apothecaries
Techmarines

Thus I put them into Company Support. There are similar lists for Battalion and chapter assets that I have picked from.

Points rounded up/down for v2.4, thanks for the clarification. I have dug deeper into the thread than past the first post and have seen the updated figures you have posted.

Stats for Sicaran are not available there are some for Armageddon kicking around the formation may be dropped?

Sergeant is a fluff thing not game related and will be explained in the user guide if not just I may just cut it out.

I agree with the limiting of support formations to five and will be changing the wording to reflect your suggestion thank you.

Thunderhawk changed as identified to drop ship.

Thank you so much Magnus for taking the time and for all the feedback you have given it is brilliant.


Squiggle

A couple of additional points. If you liked the points above, you'll love these...

You seem to have a typo in your model stats list at the end. You list a Predator's Autocannon as having a TSM of -2. NetEpic Gold has this value as a -1. I am assuming for the moment that the -2 was intended to be placed as the TSM for the Executioner. Also, are you certain that the Executioner is not mounted in a Turret? Every other Predator variant's main weapon is in a turret. For the moment, my values below reflect it not having a Turret.

I see that you do not yet have stats for the Sicaran tank. This is a pity.

Also with the Sicaran, in it's entry further up (under Company Support), you have "Sabre Squadron" rather than "Sicaran Squadron" both above and below the silhouettes.

Also, for the Detachments that can upgrade to a different tank, you seem to be implying that this is done on a tank by tank basis, rather than upgrading the whole detachment together. For example, using your wording for a Predator detachment under the Company Detachments section, a player could just upgrade one Predator and have a detachment with two Predators and one Land Raider. In my opinion, this should not be allowed. A single detachment should be entirely one sort of tank or another, not a mix.

Speaking of silhouettes, you are using the wrong one for the Land Raider. I'm supposing that the one you are using represents the 'modern' Land Raider, but the one used during the Heresy era should look like the versions in the color pictures you use. See the cover (model firing) and both pages 6 and 7, model furthest to the right (4/5ths of a stand, Rhino, Land Raider). This is the model introduced during 1st edition Epic which was set in the Horus Heresy era, thus it should be based on this. In my opinion anyway.

Right, points values. You seem to be doing things oddly. Specifically, you list Morale as if it applies to everything chosen below, but you have Break Point listed next to (almost) every detachment. Curiously, Break Point is missing from the Infantry detachments. (I'm assuming the Infantry have BP values equal to half the detachment size.) Morale should really be listed next to each Formation as well. Admittedly, most Marine formations have a value of 2, but Terminators have a value of 1, and the Command vehicles, Chaplain, & Techmarine all have values of "--". In Gold, the break point is combined for everything in the same formation, thus everything in the same Company should be considered together. However, since you have gone to lengths to be seeming to say that every detachment is considered individually, the points values below reflect that.

Points values still being worked on.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Cheers just waiting for the kids to get of the computer for the first round of amendments I'll get to the above points in due course

Thanks

Squiggle

Yay, just finished the points values.

Note that I've included a few suggested formatting changes below. These are not required, just suggestions.

Using values as per NetEpic Gold, corrected values are as follows, in the order you have them listed:

Company HQ: free, but single Command Land Raider OR Predator only.
I can imagine you saying: "Wait, it can't be free?!? That must be an error." I understand your confusion. Let me demonstrate why it must be free. In NetEpic Gold, a Support formation of Land Raiders costs 250. As this formation has 3 models in it, each model thus has a cost of 83 1/3, which I generally round to 85 for convenience. A Land Raider Company has three detachments of three models plus one Command model for 700 points. This works out to 70 points per model. Since 70 is less than 83 1/3 (dividing the Company value of 700 by just the 9 non-Command tanks results in 77.7778 which isn't much better) not only is the Command model free, but all of the rest are at a discount as well. In other words, the value of the single Command model is subsumed into the cost of the remainder of the Company, and it is thus free. However, being free, it would not be fair to allow more than one model to be given.

Company Detachments:

Predator Detachment: 200
Add an Executioner for 75 (did not exist in Gold, so value here is a guess based on similarity to other tanks)
Upgrade all 3 standard Predators (may not be selected if you have an Executioner) to Land Raiders for +50 points.
[Note that you have Break Point at 2 regardless of having 3 or 4 tanks. This makes no difference for these values, but will for the Points Formula.]


Company Support:

Super Heavy Tank (choose one)
Baneblade: 225
Shadowsword: 225
Stormblade: 275

Vindicator Squadron: 150

Imperial Dropship: 300 each (should note that each one is it's own detachment and Breaks separately)

Whirlwind Squadron: 150
Upgrade to Hunter for no cost change.

Landspeeder Squadron: 200

Sabre Squadron: 100

Sicaran: ?


Battalion Support:

Thunderhawk Gunship: 100 each (should note that each is a separate detachment with it's own Break Point, VP, etc)

Heavy Support/Devastators: 200
Add two Rhino for +25 (the Rhino cost the same no matter who they are transporting)

Tactical Detachment: 150
Add two Rhino for +25

Assault Squad: 150

Terminator Squad: 175
Add two Land Raiders for +175


Chapter Special:

Chaplain stand & Command Rhino: 75
Upgrade Command Rhino to Command Razorback: +50
Upgrade Command Rhino to Command Land Raider: +75
Upgrade Chaplain with Terminator armor: +25 (This is a guess based on changing only the Save and Weapon to match that of a Terminator stand, and the value difference in the Points Formula.)

Techmarine stand & Command Rhino: 100
Upgrade Command Rhino to Command Razorback: +50
Upgrade Command Rhino to Command Land Raider: +75
Upgrade Techmarine with Terminator armor: +50 (see above)

Suggested additions to Chapter Special:

Titan Detachment (choose one)
Warlord Titan hull: 500
Reaver Titan hull: 300
Warhound Titan hull: 125 each, max 2

Air Support Wing (choose one)
3x Thunderbolt Fighters: 250
3x Marauder Bomber: 350

Chapter Master stand & Command Rhino: 100
Upgrade Command Rhino to Command Razorback: +50
Upgrade Command Rhino to Command Land Raider: +75
Upgrade Chapter Master with Terminator armor: +0 (Save value and Weapons are already equivalent to Terminator armor)


_ "Base" Points Formula values: (note that Points Formula values are rounded to the nearest 5 points, rather than 25 as Gold does)

_ Company HQ: BP -, Morale -- [Note that all Company HQ tanks are part of the same detachment]
Command Land Raider: 145 each
Command Predator: 135 each

Company Detachments:

_ Tank Detachment (choose one)
Predator (3) Detachment: BP 2, Morale 2: 145
Land Raider (3) Detachment: BP 2, Morale 2: 180
Predator (3) +Executioner (1) Detachment: BP 2, Morale 2: 155


Company Support:

_ Super Heavy Tank (choose one): BP 1, Morale 2
Baneblade: 245
Shadowsword: 370
Stormblade: 255

_ Vindicator (3) Squadron: BP 2, Morale 2: 155

_ Imperial Dropship each: BP 1, Morale 2: 460

_ Fire Support Battery (choose one)
Whirlwind (3) Squadron: BP 2, Morale 2: 135
Hunter AA (3) Squadron: BP 2, Morale 2: 170

_ Landspeeder (5) Squadron: BP 3, Morale 2: 200

_ Sabre (3) Squadron: BP 2, Morale 2: 95

_ Sicaran: ?


Battalion Support:

_ Thunderhawk Gunship each: BP 1, Morale 2: 400

_ Heavy Support Infantry (choose one)
Devastator (4) Detachment: BP 2, Morale 2: 100
Devastator (4) +Rhino (2) Detachment: BP 3, Morale 2: 135

_ Infantry Support (choose one)
Tactical (4) Detachment: BP 2, Morale 2: 60
Tactical (4) +Rhino (2) Detachment: BP 2, Morale 2: 95

_ Assault (4) Detachment: BP 2, Morale 2: 85

_ Terminator Support (choose one)
Terminator (4) Squad: BP 2, Morale 1: 205
Terminator (4) +Land Raider (2) Squad: BP 3, Morale 1: 315


Chapter Special:

_ Chaplain Special (choose one)
Chaplain stand & Command Command Rhino: BP Chaplain, Morale -: 100
Chaplain stand & Command Razorback: BP Chaplain, Morale -: 100
Chaplain stand & Command Land Raider: BP Chaplain, Morale -: 120
Upgrade Chaplain with Terminator armor: +25

_ Techmarine Special (choose one)
Techmarine stand & Command Rhino: BP Techmarine, Morale -: 70
Techmarine stand & Command Razorback: BP Techmarine, Morale -: 70
Techmarine stand & Command Land Raider: BP Techmarine, Morale -: 90
Upgrade Techmarine with Terminator armor: +40

Suggested additions to Chapter Special:

Titan Detachment (choose one)
Warlord Titan hull: BP model, Morale -: 510
Reaver Titan hull: BP model, Morale -: 465
Warhound Titan hull: BP model, Morale -: 430 each, max 2

Air Support Wing (choose one)
3x Thunderbolt Fighters: BP 2, Morale 2: 340
3x Marauder Bomber: BP 2, Morale 2: 390

Chapter Master stand & Command Rhino: BP CM, Morale -: 155
Chapter Master stand & Command Razorback: 155
Chapter Master stand & Command Land Raider: 175
Upgrade Chapter Master with Terminator armor: +0 (see above)

Edited for formatting and corrected values for adding Rhinos to Infantry Support.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

About the landraider variants. I have all three FW heresy books and although the old style or proteus as they are now know dominates, all the other variants do make an appearance in the pictures in these books. Including the MK2B, MK3 and also the Prometheus is seen in a few pictures.

_________________
Vanguard Miniatures

Link, http://vanguardminiatures.co.uk/

Stockist of:

Vanguard Miniatures
BattleGroup Helios
Onslaught Miniatures
Pyrkol Gaming Markers
Gregster's Lab
Microworld Games
Troublemaker Games

Sicaran stats (proposed)
the increase to hit for autocannon represents the high rate of fire and that in 40k it ignores jink saves.
thinking of increasing the AD to 4 to represent the torrent of bullets it spits out.

Sicaran Battle Tank
Mv 25 cm
Sv 3+
CAF 0
Weapons
Accelerator Autocannon 75cm 2 4+ -1 Turret
Lascannons 75cm 2 5+ -1

WOW!

Some effort Magnus.

Executioner has turret added,

Sicaran above and typo fixed.

Land Raider is the best silhouette I could achieve, that mark of Land raider was about during the heresy its the Phobos class where you are talking about the Proteus. Both are equally valid variants and have no real difference in Epic scale.
Point values thank you for all the effort. I have adjusted the values to the first set you listed rounded to nearest 25. though it adds a oddity when transports are included as it steps outside the 25 point spacing brackets.

Morale and breakpoints included in each detachment and I've incorporated the 5 point increase for 1 point of break to the additional units so both the asset and increase are incorporated in one upgrade.

Every detachment acts independently as you have described.

Thanks again. V 1.1 should be ready shortly for your pleasure

Had a look at your formulae for points cost, had a bash at the Sicaran,

each one if I'm correct comes to 83 points multiplied by the three comes to 249 rounded to 250 is that correct?

I will put it in to the document it seems to fit with the units it is comparable to.

V1.2 Legion Tank Company

Magnus be gentle

feedback as ever appreciated.

when both the Tactical Company and armoured company are in a better state I will combine into one document with a user guide. the first pages will consist of the formation sheets with their relevant combat detachments. all company, battalion and chapter support will be in relevant sections pages of which will be referenced in the Company Formation sheets. have the super heavy to do first and maybe a reconnaissance, airborne, and veteran/terminator formations. My son is pestering for some Ork ones at the moment. he never stops wanting

Sorry Magnus Razorbacks are post Heresy so not included.

Cheers

squiggle

Improving the To Hit value or the TSM value is generally a better way to simulate a high-rate of fire being directed at a target. Not sure what the term "jink saves" means.

These stats work out to a value of 104 (base model) using the Points Formula. Since you did not show your work, I'll show how I got this value.
The base value for a Vehicle is 2; Move of 25cm = 5; type =1 (tracked/ground); for a total of (2*5*1) 10
A Save of 3+ is 4 points times 4 = 16
CAF of 0 is 0
Weapons:
Accelerator Autocannon: 4 (base) *2 (shots) *1.5 (75cm) *1.5 (4+) *2 (TSM-1) *1.5 (Turret) = 54
Lascannon: 4 (base) *2 (shots) *1.5 (75cm) *1 (5+) *2 (TSM) = 24
No SA (aside from the Turret, but that is included above)
Thus 10 (Move) +16 (Save) +0 (CAF) +54 +24 = 104

How does that value translate to NetEpic Gold values? Well, it doesn't. Not directly anyway. What I do in this case is look for other models that added up to a similar value and see what their NEG value was. Taking a quick look through the other factions (just at Vehicles that came to ~104 points, plus or minus 10 points) brings up these:
Vehicle ____________ Formula _ NEGold
Land Raider Helios ____ 114 ___ 115
Blood Reaper __________ 104 ___ 100
Plague Engine _________ 102 ____ 65
Warp Hunter ____________ 94 ___ 100
Leman Russ Executioner _ 94 ____ 85
Leman Russ Vanquisher _ 100 ____ 75
Griffon _______________ 106.5 __ 65
Mammoth ________________ 93 ___ 100
Kustom Kannon Speedsta_ 114.3 _ 100
Pulsa Rokkit ___________ 98 ____ 85
Retributor (Squat) ____ 100 ___ 100
Hammerhead Mk2 ________ 112 ____ 75
Hammerhead Mk6 ________ 103 ____ 75

As you can see, assigning values to things in Gold was more of an art form than a science. The average of the 13 values listed just above comes to ~87.7, which is reasonably close to 85, which would give you a Detachment value of 250 as you have in your file. This should be good enough for values based on NetEpic Gold.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

That changes it's value. It's Point Formula value now works out to 104 (same as the Sicaran) and thus it's value here should change to 85 as well. However, since you are using the NEGold equivalent values, keeping it at +75 should be fine.

On the other hand, why not just have the Predator Executioner be available as a Company Support option? It would be much simpler to just have a formation of three tanks (for 250) rather than adding single tanks to other formations. Similarly, it rather surprises me that neither Predator nor Land Raider is available as a Company Support formation.



Which typo? I listed a few...



No worries. Just personal preference creeping in. Sorry, I should have labeled that rant a bit better as opinion.



Er, oops, quite right. I've adjusted my long post with the points values above to reflect that. Specifically, adding two Rhino would just add +25 rather than +30. Good catch.

One problem. You say that you are using the NetEpic Gold values, yet the Command Tank still has a value of 150 when it should be zero. Did my reasoning not make sense? What is your thinking here?



Good, good. Definitely a step in the right direction. Make everything as clear for the user as possible.



This statement seriously confused me until I looked at the relevant section of the file. Oh no no no no. You should not do that, that just makes it worse. Adding that +5 points should not be done. Adjusting the Break Point when adding the Transport models is required to keep the cost per model the same. Well, it would be for the Points Formula. The NetEpic Gold values really don't care about Break Point or Morale, and/or already include them. In other words, do not adjust the cost of the models in any way for the change in Break Point.

On the other hand, it might just be simpler, and keep to your general methodology better, to do the following. Instead of adding Rhinos (or Land Raiders) to the Infantry or Heavy Infantry (or Terminator) Detachments, and thus having to adjust the Break Point of that Detachment, give the option to add a Detachment of 2 Rhinos (or 2 Land Raiders) to the relevant Detachment. This Transport Detachment would have it's own Break Point (1) and Morale value, and would receive orders separately. It would still be considered to be a part of the same Support formation selection, but otherwise treated in all ways as a separate Detachment.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Gotcha, no worries on the Razorbacks. Just thought that giving people more options was good, but if it doesn't fit the setting, it doesn't fit.

Good luck doing up Orks in a similar fashion. In some ways it may be simpler, as the Clans are fairly tightly defined, but the Orks have more models available to them.

Oh, one other thing jumped out at me. In the Thunderhawk Detachment, in the upper right corner you show Break Point as two (2), but the basic Detachment only contains one model. This must be a typo, as if not it would mean that the foe could never gain the VP from destroying the single model. It also contradicts the 'Special' notation that you have, thus could confuse people.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Quick reply seen you above thunderhawk was a 1:00am error. I'll get to the rest later today

Thanks

Squiggle