Hi!

This thread is for posting on anything related to the revision of the Imperial Book.

Those whom wish to supervise this list, please state so in your post and compile an editable document of the changes that are posted.

Thank you!

Primarch

Since this is empty, ill copy and paste a post I made on a previous errata thread:

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Should Scorpion AA Guns in IG list be Inorganic, Robotic, QuickDraw(?) like Tarantulas?

Is the comparatively high cost for a Mechanised Tactical Platoon because they can take Chimera variants while the Mechanised Tactical Companies and Battalion/Regimental Commanders can't? If this is the case, perhaps the p27 Mechanised Company listing should add the word Chimera to make '3 Mechanised Chimera Tactical Platoons'?

Mechanised Tactical Company = 650 points; Mechanised Tactical Platoon = 300 points; Battalion Commander (same as Mech Tac Plat but with a Major) = 200 points.

(My personal opinion is that Chimera family should have a 4+ save rather than 3+. They're a bit too strong at the moment and it seems odd that IG equipment would be better than the SM equivalent.)

Hi!

I agree on the chimera save. But then again what is supposed to be better, rhino or chimera? The rhino gets used by the SM due to their own resilience (don't need much armor when you are genetically enhanced). Perhaps the chimera is better due to the weak IG in them.

What you think?

Primarch

Hi!

Status Update:

If you choose to "lead" a particular army, just post a message on the respective army thread as to where you are on reading the books for corrections and such.

This is just to get an idea to see where we are all at.

Primarch

Hi!

It's been mentioned the IG Gold book omitted the Stormtrooper stats, but my question is:

What are their stats exactly?

OR what should they be?

I did make these so I have no clue.

Suggestions?

Primarch

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Hi!

As I am doing the spreadsheets for the IG, I find some of the Mechanized Companies, a little "far off" the price point.

The Tactical Mechanized Company is worth 300 points for 6 tactical stands and 3 chimera variants. On average they should be worth 370. Round it to 375 or 350. This means the current price point is low by at least 50 and as much as 75.

The Company is worth 650, when even using the low cost platoon cost is 900! Note a standard IG tactical company is 600, so for 50 points more you get any chimera variant and less infantry.

My question is instead of trying to create these oddball companies, why not just use standard companies and platoon and ADD mechanized support?

You need 5 chimeras or chimera variants to mount a 10 man platoon, so why not just make a support formation of 5 chimeras for 150 (there is a discount of about 15 points, which is okay) and we already have support formations of chimera variants for 250 each.

Therefore the addition of chimeras to a standard tactical company would be +450 (total 1050) for a FULL tactical company with 15 chimeras to carry all of them.

If you wanted to mechanize them with chimera variants it would be +750 (1350 total) for 15 chimera variants!1

I think this is MUCH better than the current ones.

Also as a second issue, I think all command rhinos should be removed and substituted for chimeras. The Rhino should be more an SM unit.

Thoughts and opinions please.

Primarch

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That seems fair. Checking the codices, the chimera has slightly better front armour (12/10/10) whereas the rhino has slightly better side armour (11/11/10), so pretty much the same. Would their cost decrease with the slightly worse armour save?

Matt

Hi!

If the save is reduced to the same as a rhino, that would change the cost much. Remember the chimera has an actual weapon unlike the rhino which is point defense only.

I'd lower the armor save and leave the cost the same.

Primarch

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There definitely shouldn't be rhinos in the guard list anymore, Chims for everyone.

I think you have the costs of the mechanised platoon wrong, in fact I think at 300 they are over costed. You have to remember the mech platoons are only 6 stands big.
A tactical stand is worth 20pts (10 for 200pts, tact infantry platoon), so 120 for the men.
A chimera is worth between 33 and 50 (basic chims 3 for 100, variants 5 for 250) if you say an average of 40 a model, so 120 for 3.
Total mech tactical platoon 240, round to 250.
But anyway, I agree that the mechanise formations should be scrapped, the different size to the infantry formations is just odd. Think the idea of buying the transports as a support formation to mechanise them would work.
To follow on with that, I would increase the assault and heavy platoon sizes to 10 stands as well to match.

Matt

Hi!

Agreed Chimeras for all. This will be the first "official" change.

I agree that however the 300 point cost for platoon was figured, its "off".

I'll scrap them then and include a 5 chimera option. There is already a 3 chimera option, so I don't have to alter the original assault and heavy companies (use the 3 vehicle options for those). I will also include a 3 variant chimera option to complete the option list.

People can now use support cards to "mechanize" their IG forces.

I'll take a look at the "air cav" options to see if the math is good there and perhaps make a similar option there as well.

Primarch

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I've always considered the Rhino to be an 'Imperial' vehicle rather than just a 'Marine' one, as many, many vehicles across all Imperial Factions are based on the Rhino chassis. Admittedly, that opinion was largely formed before the Chimera existed. Seeing as it now does, I agree that we should take the opportunity to make the Guard list more specialized and remove Rhinos from general Guard use, replacing with Chimera.

By my calculations, a Chimera costs 35 per unit whereas a Rhino costs 15 per, so changing over to Chimeras should probably increase the cost of any non Special (& non HQ) formation. Support formations should be increased by 50 points, and Companies by 150. Having an option to upgrade the basic Chimera to one of the variants should be there for the existing cost of +50 to the basic formation.


I found some stats for Storm Troopers. I'm not certain where, but I think it was buried in the Errata thread. They are:
Storm Trooper (35) 10cm; -; +1; Hell Guns; 50cm; 1; 5+; 0; Elite, Special

The 35 is the points cost per squad, at 6 squads & 3 Rhinos per Support formation. This should probably be changed to Chimeras and the cost of the formation increased by 50 points. Similarly, the cost of the Company will have to be changed, probably by +150 points.

The Adeptus Mechanicus army lists have the Tactical Mechanized Platoon (6 Tactical, 3 Chimera) at 275 points. This is still a little off. Actually, looking at the fluff, the Guard lists really shouldn't have Mechanized Companies at all as they are intended to be footsloggers, so having to use Support cards to do so is probably the best way to go. The Adeptus Mechanicus is intended to be Mechanized though, as that's their thing.

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Hi!

According to the Adeptus Militaris Gold Book 3 standard chimeras are for 100 points (33.33 for each). Since we have seemed to agreed to lower the chimera save to 4+ (not 3+ as it is now), thus I would keep the prices the same to account for the lower save (this is mathematically exact, but it saves some time and its close enough ).

There seems to be universal agreement for the following:

1. IG formations will use chimeras not rhinos
2. Transport will be added as support companies. In other words there are no mechanized companies, but standard companies on foot that attach support cards to make them mechanized (or transported by air for that matter).
3. Point costs will be adjusted where necessary to account for the correct cost of platoons/units.

I also would like opinions on the stormtrooper platoon. Its currently 6 stands and 3 chimeras (used to be rhinos). Its cost 250. Reasonable? Accurate?

Magnus, a million thanks for the stormtroopers stats!!

I will insert them into the spreadsheets.

Primarch

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Hi!

Summary of changes thus far.

1. Chimera Stats: 20cm (move), 4+ (armor save), +1 (CAF), multi-laser 25cm (range), 1 (attack die), 4+ (to hit), 0 (TSM), transport 2, turret.

2. Rhinos will be replaced with chimera APC across the whole IG list. Point will remain the same since the armor save was reduced.

3. Stormtrooper. Stats: Storm Trooper (35) 10cm; -; +1; Hell Guns; 50cm; 1; 5+; 0; Elite, Special

Platoon of 6 stands and 3 chimera APC. formation cost 250 points.

Question to group: Do we want a company of stormtroopers or support only?

4. Mechanized support. All transports will be attached to standard companies on foot. Support formation composition and cost below:

3 chimera APC - 100 points
5 chimera APC - 150 points
3 chimera variants (any) - 150 points
5 chimera variants (any) - 250 points

Any of these can be attached to companies for transport as support formations. No companies with integrated transport will exist.

Primarch

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As a Storm Trooper Support Formation is currently 250 points with Rhinos, it should be 300 (or 275 with the values below) with Chimeras. This would make a Company (three Platoons + 2CHQ & command Chimera) be 850 points (or 825 see below). Alternatively, they could be left with Rhinos to make them the exception to the rule that Guard use Chimera, if they need more flavor.


Yes, the armor save was reduced, but the Chimera still has a real weapon attack, and a decent one at that, so it's still better than a Rhino. It is slower, but has a higher CAF. It's points value should probably be reduced, but by how much? I'd say that the Chimera's new points value should probably be 25, as reducing it to 30 would have little to no effect. Assuming that the save reduction would also affect the variants (I don't think this was discussed though), their points costs should also be reduced.

If the cost of the Chimera is reduced to 25 per (from 33 1/3 per) and the variants thus to 40 per (from 50) then formation costs should be:

3 Chimera: 75 points
5 Chimera: 125
3 variants: 125 (technically 120, but I doubt we want to go there)
5 variants: 200


As to adding Storm Trooper stats into spreadsheets, they are already in the file I posted. If you are using that as a baseline, your work is done.

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Hi!

I favor these point costs. If there is no objection I will use these.

The spreadsheets I was referring to are the ones me and Mattman are making for potential army builder use. They have a distinct format as shown here:

download/file.php?id=7490&t=1

Were you doing something similar?

Primarch

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