Can infantry stands take cover behind tanks? It was a real tactic as demonstrated in the movie Fury which showed lines of infantry sheltering behind tanks. Anyone that is unlucky enough to be seen behind the tank doesn't last long as shown in the attached pics.

It seems like it could actually give Rhinos a useful purpose after they've unloaded.

So if it gives the infantry a -1 to hit modifier, how do we represent hitting the tank instead? Maybe as an optional rule if you miss the infantry by one, then resolve the hit on the tank instead?

Hi!

I'd keep it simple and give the infantry soft cover with a -1 penalty to hit them.

Primarch

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Primarch


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Yes, Short answer Infantry gets cover from being behind AFVs, etc. ... We did it in the real world. Infantrymen spend a lot of time putting something solid between themselves and all the flying objects on the battlefield.

"Cover" being something solid.

And "Concealment" - something you can hide behind like brush, but won't stop anything coming your way. If he can't see you he may not shot at you ...

Also note another AFV can hide behind another. Even a [KO'd] AFV could provide cover for another.

It comes down to LOS = Line Of Sight ... and hopefully putting something solid between you and all those trying to kill you.

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Right, I guess my query was more about what happens if you shoot at the infantry and miss because the tank is in the way. ie you just hit the tank instead, shouldn't the tank then have a chance of being destroyed?

Hi!

What's mentioned above by us is an abstraction, to keep it simple.

However if you wanted to simulate that, I'm not sure what would be a good mechanic for that. Your original idea (miss by one hit tank), is as good as any.

Primarch

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The Tank provides the cover ... you give the Infantry a cover bonus. If you miss the Infantry ... that does not mean you hit the Tank. The Tank was not your target. The Infantry survives ... the Tank survives.

In reality, generally you would Not fire an AT weapon at Infantry. But APers weapons ... if the APers weapon hit the tank it would have little effect ... Keep It Simple ... If you are going to see where every missed weapon shot went you'd be wasting your time. The overwhelming weapons fired do Not hit their targets for a variety of reasons ...

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

well said L4.

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Thanks for the answers guys!

I'm not proposing to calculate where every missed shot went. But if you miss by one point specifically because of the cover that the tank provides i.e. without the cover of the tank, the shot would have hit, then I think it's reasonable to suppose that the shot hits the tank because it was in the way. I've played skirmish rules that use this rule. If a character is taking cover behind a wall, and the shot misses because of the modifier, then you roll to penetrate the wall. I'm not proposing to treat buildings in epic this way, but with tanks I think it would make sense. Particularly if you happen to be shooting with a tank or titan mounted lascannon at the infantry that has no AP setting. Even infantry have anti tank weapons or they wouldn't be able to destroy tanks ever. But weather those are lascannons or missiles that could be AP is usually below the level of detail, so I guess it could go either way.

Another question is, how much of the infantry stand should be behind the tank to provide cover? I have the old square infantry bases. If I have two of them next to each other behind a rhino, do they both get the -1 for partial cover, or should one be hidden directly behind the rhino and the other left out in the open? How much of the stand needs to be poking out from behind the tank for the stand to have enough line of sight to take a shot?

We never played it that way. As the Tank blocked LOS and provide cover ... and in turn would get hit by the APers rounds meant for the Infantry. And would have no real appreciable effect on the Infantry. But you can play as you like. But with a lot of units on the board you might be adding more detail than needed. And the question again is what is shooting at the infantry, AT or APers.

As far as how much cover, is again ... based on LOS ... the direction the fire is coming from. What can the firing unit see of the Infantry ? If can only see 50% or less of the target/Infantry ... the Infantry gets cover.

And yes in modern warfare all Infantry has AT weapons.

My Plt in the 101 ABN, each 11 man Squad , an 1 Dragon M47 MAW was in one of the Fire Tms
[Squads had 2 Fire Tms of 5 men each and then the SL made 11. ]

[ 3 Squads per Plt + 3-4 man Plt HQ/CP]

Each 5 man Fire Tm had an M203 GL with could fire HEDP rounds with could penetrate 2 ins/50mm of armor. Along with the M47. And the others in the Fire Tm could be issued M72 LAWs.

The other 5 man Fire Tm was the same except for the M47 MAW was replaced with an M60 MG.

So yes, all Infantrymen have AT weapons ... But you normally would Not fire the M47 or M72s at Infantry unless they are in a bunker, building etc. ...

But again ... play the game as you wish ...

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Thanks for the detailed answer Legion 4.
Yes I hear you about the infantry firing. It's mostly an academic question since I've never actually had this come up in a game to date, but I might house rule it that when vehicles or Titans are firing then they hit the intervening vehicle if they miss the infantry by one.

So if a tank is half concealed by cover hiding behind the edge of a building, it gets the -1 "soft cover" modifier to hit. But then does it only get to shoot with the weapons that have a line of sight i.e. maybe one sponson and the main turret not the other sponson. Or, does one assume that the tank will shunt out, fire all its weapons, then shunt back. That's how tank action goes down in the tank video games I've played. You shoot, then retreat behind cover for the reload. Admittedly none of those tanks I played have side sponsons, but if they did I could picture nosing out a bit further to let them shoot before retreating for the reload. Or is a move like that akin to an Eldar pop-up attack and earn a -1 modifier? (If it's even allowed).
It always felt odd to me that Eldar tanks can pop in and out of cover during shooting, but not regular tanks who in real life do the same thing horizontally as one of their main tactics for attack (when cover is available).

Yes, AFVs do get a cover bonus for being behind cover. There is a standard tactic/technique AFVs use, I.e.: "Hull Down". The vehicle gets behind cover with only it's turret exposed so it can fire it's main gun, while much of the vehicle is behind cover. Making it a smaller target and get protection from the wall, berm, another KO'd tank, etc. it's behind ...

For gaming purposes ... and generally reality ... the tank will not move and only fire the weapons that are not behind cover. Of course today I can't think of any modern AFV that has sponsons or even a bow/front hull MG.

Eldar Grav tanks and any vehicle for that matter that can make" pop-up" attacks IMO, are like modern Helicopter Gunships like the AH-1 Cobra or AH-64 Apache, etc., ... Not MBT/AFVs ... The standard tactic is to hover behind cover and pop-up to take a shot, then go back down under cover. The way we do that is the pop-up attack is made, then using the original "Snap Fire"/Opportunity fire SM1 rule. One enemy model on First Fire Orders within range can fire at the pop-up before it goes back down under cover. The Pop-up model must be on Fire Fire orders. He's hovering waiting for a target.

Do you see how that works and the difference between Tanks vs. Helicopters ? Grav vehicles or any model that can make "pop-up" attacks are not Tanks but more like Helicopters ...

Now let me add a bit more "reality" and game dynamics. Before you ask. Any unit on First Fire orders can Snap Fire[again what other wargames call "Opportunity Fire", only if the target expends 1/4 of it's move in the Op Firing LOS.

To get cover bonus AFVs must be at least 50% under cover. Infantry on First Fire in the open get a cover bonus because they are prone, I.e.: laying down trying use every fold, bump, etc. on the ground. To not be a target.

Now you may ask about AFVs without turrets. Which are called Assault Guns, in WWII and now. But few AFVs today don't have turrets today. An Assault Gun, like a Demolisher in GW fluff, has about a 180 Degree Field Of Fire(FOF). As the main gun can traverse a little to get a shot. If anything is not in that FOF/LOS. They pivot steer by turning/pivoting slightly on one track to get the target in is FOF/LOS. And that is not considered moving.

Now that is different than an AFV with sponsons behind cover. The AFV would have to move at least 45 degrees to get both sponsons to have a LOS to a target. So that is not "pivoting slightly" ...

At the Infantry Officer Basic Course, we were trained to work with Armor. Even riding on the back deck to move faster than walking. [We even do that in Epic.] We rarely moved behind the Tank like in the pic you posted. But it was an option. If you ever saw the movie "Full Metal Jacket" the Marines were fighting in Urban Terrain, the city of Hue in South Vietnam. So yes they took cover behind the M48s MBTs. We'd do the same if we had to.

After I lead a Plt in the 101, later I was a Mech Infantry Co. Cdr. with M113s. And my Company was routinely attached to a Tank Bn. So I spent a lot of time working with MBTs [M60s & M1IPs]. We moved in our M113 APCs to keep up with tanks obviously. But always tried to use cover, camo and concealment. As an M113 APC does not have the armor protection of a tank. So when we could we'd dismount and use the terrain for cover. That included the M113.

The dynamics of warfare, especially modern combat as the weapons systems can be very deadly. You always tried to get something solid between you and incoming enemy fire. That goes for AFVs too. If not something solid but some sort of concealment like thick foliage ... To hide you ... I think that is still valid advice for wargaming Epic regardless it happens very much in the future.

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Er, this is already covered (no pun intended) in the rules. A tank (or any other Vehicle class model) blocks LOS to Infantry (and other lower pinning-class models & stands) behind it. Thus an Infantry stand behind a vehicle cannot be targeted at all, as there is no LOS to it. See the final sentence on page 33 of the Core Rules.

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There you go !

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Okay, so I can have two square infantry stands each half hidden behind the same rhino and they'll both get to shoot and be -1 to hit. Thanks guys!