Ok, time to kick this off.

Firstly, apologies if these answers are in the book (I did look, promise) or if I am overthinking somewhat

In no particular order.

-Transport: Can units begin embarked in their transports
Guessing yes, but its always good to know for sure.

- Transport: Can models being transported be dropped off during movement?
IE: Rhino moves forward 5 cm, drops off troop stand (both units lose 5 cm movement) then Rhino continues to move the remainder of its movement. Obviously coherency might be an issue if you move too far away.

- Nob Command: Can Ork mobs be given commands by Nobs being transported?
IE: Ork Detachment is within 10cm of a Warboss and his Nobs that are currently in their Battlewagons. Can they be given order tokens?

- Charging/Compulsory movement: If a unit has compulsory orders, is there a minimum distance they must move?
IE: Goffs seem clear they have to move between 10 - 20 cm when out of command, but other cards have a mix of language - must, may, will etc. This sort of ties in to the other ideas I am still formulating about tidying up the language a little as it does lead to some confusion.
Best example I can give is the Madboys.They roll a charge order. How far must they move? Can they "charge" 0cm to remain on a objective.
Same with Kult of Speed. If they are on instinctive, must they move the full possible distance?

- Models out of formation: The book states if a stand/vehicle is out of formation it must regain coherency next turn (unless on FF). What happens if it can't? Does it just move as close to its "parent" as possible and then keep trying each turn after that? Other possibilities might be that it gets removed if it can't do it in one turn (harsh, but stops people bumbling around on their own for too long).
What happens if there are two groups (or more) that have become out of formation. Does the largest group count as in formation? Can you chose. Some detachments have a clear "leader" stand, but not all. Maybe something to consider, all units must declare one "leader" stand that is where coherency is drawn from. If the model is destroyed, immediately promote another. (Very Warmachine)

- Can Skimmers move over models?: The book states jump packs can move over enemy/friendly troops, but what about skimmers?

- Mekboy Gargant Weapons: The rules technically state you can choose any two weapons right? Going off the classic model, I would say you get one Deluxe Custom Cannon, then can choose one of the three other weapons (Buzz saw/Krusher/Super Lifta Dropper), I would ususally go this way a I am a fan of WYSIWYG but of course if you convert your own Gargs then YMMMV.

-Great Gargant Damage Grids: Differentiating the weapon boxes for damage purposes?
Should the damage boxes be read as follows: (Treat the grid as A-E/1-5) Need to draw a picture here...

Front:
A/1 = Turret
A/2 = Arm weapon
A/3 = Arm weapon
B/2 = Ammo for arm weapon (side note, Ammo = Magazine table right?)

Side:
B/1 = Turret
B/2 = Arm weapon
B/3 = Arm weapon
C/3 = Arm weapon

Rear:
A/1 = Turret
A/2 = Arm weapon
A/3 = Arm weapon


- Multiple damage weapons: Are the attacks separate? Are they rolled simultaneously or sequentially?
EG: Scorpion tank. Concentrated Pulse Laser. You get two shots, both hitting on a 3+
If you hit, does that immediately become D3 hits, each of which must be saved separately, or is it one hit which must be saved, which then becomes D3 damage for models that have multiple damage points (eg Super Heavy and Titans).

On that note...

When you hit a titan with a Scorpion, you roll to hit, then do you choose D3 locations to hit, each of which must be saved separately and does its own damage, or is it D3 hits on the one location. Are these sequential or simultaneous. It does make a difference when rolling against damage tables.

Oh, and one more. I've seen some similar thinking about this issue elsewhere in the forum.

-Deathrollers: Text states "It will squish any infantry or cavalry model encountered on a 4+ at 0TSM. If the victim is not killed the Deathroller unit will end movement".

This is a little vague. Questions break down as follows:

Does this work only on a charge, or can it be done on an advance? EG: Detachment with Deathrollers charges at a unit. Every time it encounters an infantry/cavalry model, it makes the attack roll and if hits the target makes a save roll. If the model is killed, the Deathroller model can continue (making more Deathroller attacks as necessary). If the attack misses or the model saves, the Deathroller model immediately comes to a stop and is then engaged in combat?

If it works on an advance, then what happens if the attack fails? Can models engage in close combat if one/neither is on charge orders? I would say no, but can models be B2B without engaging? I would also say no. If the attack fails, are either/both models free to fire if applicable.

Easiest thing is to say Deathrollers can only be used on a charge to avoid this issue. But the rules don't specifically call that out.

I did also think about harking back to the old death or glory rules from 40K as a possible solution, though it adds a layer of complexity.

Potential rule -



This needs a little cleaning up, but I hope it conveys the idea as a possible amendment to the rules.
Could go either way on the target no longer being able to attack if it makes a Death or Glory attack.
Also, should there be a limit on how many Deathroller attacks are made? A charging detachment could "lawnmower" all over an enemy detachment and do some serious damage. Its a fun visual image mind you...

Hi!



Yes they can.



Reading the information on core rules page 27 and the examples, I would say yes.



Yes.



If a movement range for compulsory movement is not specifically stated, assume that the FULL charge move must be taken.

Compulsory movement is not meant to be confused with "charge orders". A unit on charge orders may not move at all if it didn't want to (although giving them such orders not to move would be dubious), since no order really makes movement obligatory (and some like first fire have no move).

A compulsory move is different from a charge order as there is no choice for the formation other to move its full charge rate in whichever direction the compulsory move dictates (usually retreat).

Your madboy example, could move "0cm" if indeed the roll dictates a "charge order". It would be another debate if such orders to that unit are compulsory or not.

Another case of lack of clarity of the rules.



They move as close as they can for as long as it takes (the whole game if for whatever reason they can't regroup).



This is a shortcoming of the second edition rules (thus net epic as well), where the "leader" doesn't behave very "leader-like". Rules closer to what you hint at existed under 1st edition, where leaders where very integral and things like regrouping or splitting up formations existed.

Without such a rules framework under these rules to cover such things it is family in the "house rules" category.



I have always assumed that they could and have played them that way. I think the "safe" interpretation is that they could go over any unit that cannot pin them. Meaning most units except other skimmers.



I think your interpretation would be the most accurate. Although I'd imagine those into custom builds or their models would like the more open interpretation.



Probably a good recommendation when redoing these for Platinum, but I agree it is somewhat a little too "liberal" in defining what weapon certain hit locations refer to.



If I understand the question correctly it would be the former interpretation. Once you hit it inflicts d3 hit each saved separately. They all go to one target as per its rules.



The latter all hits go to one location, save each separately. They would be simultaneous, so only the highest damage rolled on the failed saves would apply.

This one is a good catch by the way.

Primarch

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Hi!

I gonna let Magnus field this one, since there was a long conversation about this and the possible interpretations and consensus.

Primarch

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[Note: I began typing this before Primarch posted. It appears he and I mostly agree, but not entirely.]

As far as I am aware, how I've played, and how I've seen other people play the game, the expectation is that troops with dedicated Transports generally begin the game inside them. They don't have to, of course, but they generally do. Certain Transports actually require that the transported models/stands begin the game inside them (Drop Pods, Dropships, etc). Thus my answer to your first question is yes.

Yes, transported models can be dropped off during movement. I thought that there was an example of exactly that in the rules, but I may be thinking of a 2nd Edt/TL rulebook. As you mentioned, there may be coherency issues to consider, but that also depends on whether you are playing the Transports as bound or not. There was a discussion about this a while ago here as well.

Nobz in Transports: Answer has to be yes, otherwise Evil Sunz Clan cannot function. Same would apply to Marine or Guard or other factions' Command/HQ models in their respective vehicles. This is an exception to the restriction that Special Abilities do not work when in a transport.

Compulsory Movement: Not sure offhand, I'll have to re-read those rules. From what I recall, this varies a lot from one formation to another, depending heavily on the specific language included in their text. 'Must' vs 'may', for example. Personally, I don't think it would be fair for a formation or model with 'Charge' orders to move 0cm. While that may not be against the letter of the rules, it seems against the spirit. [Re-reads the rules, including the Ork Instinctive behaviors.] From my view, the Ork Instinctive Behaviors are well written enough. Perhaps we could change all "will" to "must", but they have the same meaning anyway.

To be clear, the Madboyz do not have Instinctive movement, just random orders. Thus Madboyz could get away with moving 0cm when on Charge, as the rules technically allow that, but it would be a very un-Orky thing to do.

As to the Kult of Speed on Instinctive orders, well, that depends. The way I see it, the player has two primary choices at that point. A) Do I want them to enter Close Combat? and B) Do I want them to go really far? If the answer to A is yes, then the player selects a direction toward an enemy detachment, and then the models will move as far as needed (or possible) toward that detachment and enter CC if possible. If the answer to A is no and B is yes, then the player selects a direction that is clear of terrain for the furthest distance possible, and the Kult must then move as close to double normal Move as is possible. If the answer to A and B are both no, then the player selects a direction with lots of blocking terrain and the Kult moves as far as it can. In any event, even under Instinctive orders, the direction that the Kult moves in is still up to the player to determine. Whichever direction is chosen, the Kult must move as far as it can, up to double normal Move.

Coherency.
_ To your first question, the final sentence in the first paragraph "... as soon as possible." should take priority over "... in the next Movement Phase." Perhaps the latter wording could be replaced by the former. I don't think that there should be any penalty assessed, other than the requirement of trying to regain coherency if on orders other than FF.
_ To the second question there, the entire detachment is considered "out of coherency" and must attempt to regain it if moving. No sub-section of the detachment would be considered "in coherency" under most circumstances. Models with Regeneration or Living Metal are an exception to that, as noted in the rules.

Skimmers: Yes ... or no. That is a tricky issue. Technically, a Skimmer ignores all terrain while moving, which means that it can move over buildings. Since it can move over buildings, logically it should be able to move over other models as well. However, logic does not necessarily apply to game rules. If Zone of Control is used (see page 23), it makes it even less likely, as any skimmer would generally remain within 1cm of the ground (or whatever surface) during movement. It is probably simplest to say that they cannot move over other models, friend or foe, as most models simply don't have the mass for the skimmer to repel off of. A more complicated thing would be to say that they can, but probably only models that they cannot pin (ignoring the Skimmer ability).
_ To put that another way, by a strict reading of the rules, that would be no. However, it could be yes, but both you and your foe would have to agree to it.
_ On the other hand, we could (slightly) redefine the Skimmer ability. There are already two levels of it, those who can Pop-Up and those who cannot. It would be reasonably simple to say that, for example, those who can Pop-Up can move over buildings and other models while those who cannot Pop-Up cannot move over buildings or models. Then again, buildings (generally) aren't trying to shoot you, so this may create more problems than it solves.

Mekboy Gargant weapons. Correct, technically any two may be selected, but if using the classic model it would be as you noted.

Great Gargant hit location template: (also, all hit location templates)
_ Each weapon would technically have it's own damage chart, but there just isn't space for that. Thus the player will have to track all hits & effects for each weapon/location. Thus labeling what could be called "Turret" as "Weapon" should be sufficient, as there does not need to be separate damage charts for each.
_ I have also found it odd that the template says "Ammo" while the damage chart says "Magazine". Still, this is fairly straightforward as there are no locations called "Magazine" on the template. Well, for me it is only mildly confusing. I suppose for someone without the knowledge that a place where ammo is kept is called a magazine, this could be confusing.

Multiple damage weapons. This one also varies from model to model, as I recall. Each model's description should specify. For example:
_ Scorpion Super Heavy (& Eldar Titan Pulse Laser weapon): This has one shot (ignore the x2 after the name) that, if the one to-hit roll succeeds, turns into 1d3 hits - each of which must be saved against separately. Against models with a hit location template, well, that is unspecified. Personally, I'd say that all 1d3 hits must initially target the same location, but each would deviate on it's own. This is because all hits come from the same shot. Or in other words, one to-hit roll equals one location chosen. Some weapons may say otherwise.
_ _ Simultaneous or sequential: Yes. While technically the 1d3 hits would happen simultaneously, so would all other shots from the same model, and probably most of the shots from other models as well. Thus, as with all other shots, each of the 1d3 hits would have to be each dealt with (save & any damage table roll, plus fires if applicable) before dealing with the next hit.

Deathrolla: While I disagree that the stated text is at all vague, I do agree that it does not address your question. Looking back at the rules in 2nd Edition, it specifically said that if the target survives then the Deathrolla's movement ends AND it is considered to be bogged down in close combat. Thus the simplest thing to do would be re-instate this wording. That would solve the issue without creating any new rules.
_ That said, I like the idea of the target model getting to shoot at the Deathrolla. Of course, they already can do this as per the Snap Fire rules. Still, aside from that, this could be added such that the being-run-over model could choose to make a ranged attack against the Deathrolla model, but is hit automatically by the Deathrolla with no save should it's attack fail to kill the Deathrolla model. If it does kill the Deathrolla, it should count as having used Snap Fire.
_ No, there should be no limit. The intent of the ability is to mow down swathes of Infantry.
_ As Primarch stated, Deathrolla was discussed recently. I'll have to re-read that thread and get back to you on this.

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Not the thread about Deathrolla, but good questions here:
viewtopic.php?f=172&t=30006

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Found the discussion on Deathrolla. As a side note, you may want to read through all of the threads in the NetEpic Gold Army Lists sub-forum, or at least those that pertain to factions that you are using.

viewtopic.php?f=173&t=25673&start=43

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Cheers again gents.

Most of the questions were pretty self evident and I was pretty sure of the answer, but no question is a stupid question right?!?

I will endeavour to read as much of the forum as possible. The Deathroller thread was the one I was referencing as being along the same lines as I was thinking.

The only "unclear" bit is what happens when a Deathroller unit on Advance contacts an enemy stand and fails to kill it, as they are now B2B (and technically engaged in C/C) but as no charge was given, do they fight the C/C, or are they free to shoot? Perhaps they should "bounce back" a tiny amount if on Advance to show they are not engaged, or else fight the C/C if on Charge?

The death or glory was more an idle thought or perhaps for platinum? I have a few other things I'd like to suggest for platinum which I will raise in the relevant area.

I'd like a second pass at coherency please. From what is quoted here

that has an interesting impact on things.

If no group of models (units ) can be considered in coherency if any unit is OOC, that does somewhat affect activating a detachment. Of course, it should be pretty easy to get smaller detachments back into formation in one move, and this can be done as part of a charge or an advance (and F/F is specifically called out in the text as allowing detachments to remain broken apart.

However, for truly massive formations (maybe an Ork clan with extra boys), there is some chance that a savvy player could scalpel out the core of a formation leaving two distinct groups of boys left. This is entirely a legitimate tactic in some games, forcing a general to deal with tidying up their ranks once the bodies start dropping.

I suppose I'm sort of bringing a Warmachine hang up over here, as formation of units is a key part of the game there, and there are explicit rules for how a unit works as a cohesive whole, what happens if models get left behind and how they behave to get back in to formation.

This might just be a mental exercise over everything as if both parts of a formation (or as many "parts" have been split up by damage) spend a turn advancing or charging they will most likely get back into formation, but its not guaranteed.

I think its worth a pass also as I can't see there being any penalty for being OOF, other than the stipulation to get back into formation. This could be where my thinking is coming from (in Warmachine a model out of formation can do nothing other than advance/run towards/directly towards its leading officer). As far as I can tell, an OOF unit can still charge/shoot/whatever as long as it aims to get back in to formation as part of this action.

This is where I can see a potential for having a formation commander which is the "starting point" for coherency and should be where everyone is aiming to get back to, but this is an evolution, rather than a clarification so is best dealt with elsewhere.

I think it best to deal with the Instinctive orders elsewhere as I can better explain what I am driving at as this is becoming a little wall of text again

One thing to clarify in my mind here though, is I read a charge as both a "classic" charge (as in run up and hit someone in the face) as well as a "run" type order to gain ground. There is no "run" order, and allowing charge to represent both seems to negate its necessity, but am I wrong in this understanding?

Again, in WM, a charge is supposed to be about getting in to CC, but it can also be used as a deliberate way of moving models up the field at pace.

The Damage grids is again one of those things that I think is really obvious when you know what is being presented, but has just enough vagueness to allow "that guy" to create unnecessary friction when attacking a titan class model.

Because all the boxes for weapons are marked as "Weapon" on the Great Gargant grid,and the turrets and the arm guns are adjacent, it can be a little confusing.

I'm basing my reading on having stared at great gargants since my first ever WD (188) and it being my number one Epic mini of all time. I read it as stated in my first post, there is one Turret box, and three Arm weapon boxes per side when looking at the mini from the front. This may not be correct though, perhaps there should be two turret boxes to represent the turret/shoulder as one weapon and the arm as the second. A simple clarification of what the weapon boxes represent might be considered to remove any and all doubt.

I think the ammo = magazine is again obvious to anyone in the know, but "that guy" might decide that in the true letter of the rules, there is no "ammo" damage chart, so any hits on ammo do nothing. Of course, that guy quickly finds he has no friends or people to play with, but by removing any chance of "creative" reading, it reduces his impact on a game for little effort. This is very much where GW games are a little lacking (and a lot of these issues are legacy issues brought over as part of the inspiration for Epic:Gold, IE GW created these damage grids and its very clear from reading their thoughts on game play that all Wargamers should be perfect gentleman who are able to intuit intent from reading and always play accordingly).

Interesting that the Scorpion only gets one shot out of its main gun. The Pulse Laser x2 on the card lead my opponent to believe he got two shots per turn. A good example of how reading can be very different to intent (and he was in no way being "that guy"). Might be worth looking at removing the x2 in some what to ensure people are not getting 2D3 hits out of each Scorpion if that's not the intent. They are scary enough as is

Proposed tweak to the Titan damage grids where necessary (quick mockup).

This specifically calls out each weapon as required based on my interpretation, but is of course open to amendment if I am reading it wrong.

Also side note while I was thinking about it, the Ammo/Magazine is for the arm guns only? As in turrets are self contained. Again, this matters for the 4-6 damage roll which also rolls against "the weapon".

If a magazine is detonated (4-6) and fails to destroy the attached weapon, the weapon can continue to fire right? Its assumed they have enough ammo left lying about to carry on shooting for the rest of the battle, even though their magazine just went up in smoke.

Yeah, the Deathrolla rule should be amended in some way as to specify exactly what happens if the Deathrolla model is on Advance orders. I'd be fine with reinstating the "it is stunk in CC" rule that was the case in 2nd edition. Yes, most models cannot engage in CC when on Advance orders, but then a Deathrolla would be the exception to that. This game (Epic in specific, and GW games in general) are all about "it always works exactly like this ... except for here, here, here, and oh here."

On the other hand, if the majority of people would prefer to not reinstate that rule, then the Deathrolla model should 'bounce back', probably about 3cm (Zone of Control) or so back in the direction it just came from.

For that matter, why was that part removed? Primarch, do you know why that part of Deathrolla was removed? Was it an intentional change, or an oversight/typo?
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Coherency. Yes, it can affect how a detachment is activated, that is intentional, and dates back to 2nd edition Epic. You probably knew that.

I do have more thoughts on Coherency, and the other issues you brought up, just not the time to put my thoughts in order so as to be coherent. I'll get back to this later.

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