Hi!

A lot of overcompensation with plasma weapons when the game made the transition from the original AT game (where plasma weapons were king) and 2nd edition space marine (where plasma weapons were nerfed).

To get some traction on solving the problem I wanted to make some alternate rules that were:

1. Based on the Imperator's plasma generation scheme for purposes of uniformity
2. Simple. Little book keeping beyond keeping track of plasma
3. Solves the plasma weapons dilemma

This is what I came up with.

Plasma will be rolled at the time of the titans activation.

Plasma will be consumed for fire control, movement, shield repair and plasma weapons if any.

The rates for plasma accrual will be projected from the Imperator rate.

Imperator: 1d6+6; minimum per turn is 7, average 9-10

Warlord: 1d6+3; minimum 4, average 5-6

Reaver: 1d6+2; minimum 3, average 4-5

Warhound: 1d6+1 minimum 2, average 3-4

Since unused plasma can be retained from one turn to the next, a practical upper limit needs to be placed to avoid silly situations of too much plasma. Also, since plasma overload is a real (and sometimes catastrophic) problem I thought of the following rule.

A player may retain unused plasma from one turn to the next, however if AT ANY TIME the amount of plasma exceeds the particular plasma reactor limit (the titans limit is defined as the maximum amount a titan can obtain in one turn by a maximum die roll, 12 for the Imperator, 9 for Warlord, 8 for Reaver, 7 for the warhound) the player can either:

1. Issue an immediate reactor flush losing all plasma tokens, leaving the titan powerless for that turn, but no reactor damage is suffered

OR

2. Forgo the reactor flush keep ALL the plasma, resolve its turn (move fire etc), but once the titans turn is done, all remaining plasma is lost (emergency flush) but the player has to make a mandatory roll on the reactor damage table with a penalty of +1 to the roll for every plasma counter that surpassed the maximum for that titan type (if a warlord had 11 plasma the reactor roll would be a +2 for the 2 plasma beyond the max of 9). Reactor damage results are applied immediately.

These rules are in place to make "plasma hording" risky and dangerous and encourage safe/routine use.

Weapons

1. Any number or non plasma, non special missile weapons may be fired with the use of one plasma counter. Titans armed solely of such weapons are very reactor friendly, but are less devastating than those armed with plasma weapons.

2. Special missile weapons (usually one shot) require TWO plasma counters to prime and fire. Of course this is a one time expenditure since its a one shot weapon. Making it cost two instead of one is to avoid "suicide titan" tactics where warlords armed with 4 such weapons rush in fire all their missiles for 1 each then flee. AT a cost of two, it makes such tactics improbable/impossible.

3. Plasma weapons

All plasma weapons (with the exception of the plasma blasgun with will ONLY have the non-overcharged option) with have a basic charge shot that costs ONE plasma counter for each attack die and an overcharge shot that costs TWO plasma counters per attack die rolled.

Basic charge
1 Attack die 3+ to hit, -4 save modifier

Over Charge
1 Attack die 3+ to hit -6 save modifier

Weapon range is as per type:

Plasma blastgun is 50cm
Plasma cannon is 75cm
Plasma destructor 100cm

Basically the "power" of each weapon is the distance it can effectively hurl the plasma.

All weapon and titan chassis costs remain the same.

Plasma usage costs

Fire control: 1 plasma for advance fire; 2 plasma for first fire; no plasma allocated no firing
Engine: 1 plasma for up to advance move; two plasma for up to charge move; no plasma no move
Shields: 1 plasma for repair 5+, 2 plasma for repair 4+

For those whom like he old fluff I will add an optional rule of "over shield" where the titan cannot fire (only move) and consume ALL plasma for the shield to basically render the titan invulnerable for one turn (all shots are blocked by over shield, except things that ignore shields), however in the end phase the player that used over shield MUST roll on the shield generator damage table and apply the result.

These represent the totality of the alternate titan rules. Note that I kept a careful eye on unintended consequences and exploits to put these together, not only to solve the plasma weapon issue, but to make titans worth their points over all.

Note this weapons titans could move at a charge rate AND first fire depending on plasma expenditure, so this transforms the strategies used with them. Titans become VERY dangerous now, as they should be/ But adequate power management is also critical. Plasma weapons are once more king, but require lots of energy to use, but no longer put burdens that made them useless.

Of course, when you make such rules you must think of the game as a whole and what other things get effected. If Imperial titans are like this what of Eldar Phantoms which are technologically superior?

The easy route for a fix is that since eldar reactors are much more efficient than Imperial ones no tracking of plasma is needed. They use what they need, when they need it.

In game terms this means eldar titans need no order counters of any type. They move at their full rate and always fire in the first fire phase (basically making them command units). Their holofield save will be a flat 3+.

This makes eldar titans the most flexible of all titans, but they need to constantly move to avoid destruction. Also they still retain their vulnerability to artillery (even though they always scatter). Also the fixed holo save means a certain amount of shots can get through. It makes them powerful, but not invincible.

In the case of the Warlock titan only add that due to its prescience it always retains the ability to MOVE LAST, even if the eldar player didn't win initiative. Thus a player with Eldar warlock titans ALWAYS has the last move.

No other changes are needed with the eldar titans.

Ork titans lack plasma reactors, so no changes are needed. Use as is.

Tyranids have no reactors, so as orks no changes needed.

Slann are the most advanced race. So they should have the same benefit as Eldar titans and an already low shield repair makes them devastatingly good.

Opinions are very welcome!

Primarch

I like your ideas. Unfortunately I have no idea when I can playtest them.

_________________
"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

Hi!

These aren't really "new". I have used some of the concepts above in the past. What I need to test is whether the additions I have made to them will quash some of the abuses I have seen.

For example, the Imperator as it stands is a very easy unit to abuse. If you roll for plasma well, then its even easier. But if you don't, just horde until you do, odds are there is nothing robust enough to take you down.

I used to combine with the Imperator some unit that had a lot of shots to strip shields then destroy with the plasma annihilator. Way to easy to do.

That's why I added the "plasma overload" caveat. You can still "horde" but it may either leave you helpless or destroy you if you "over horde". I need to see if it works well enough in actual play.

Also I need to see it if quashes some overly used titan configurations, like those with a couple of gatling blasters (for shields) and one or more volcano cannons. While volcano cannons are great, they are way to effective in combination with other weapons or units. Perhaps the way plasma weapons work will remedy that now.

I smell some testing in the future for me at least. I have finally taken all my epic stuff out of storage. As part of the upcoming thread with pictures, this time I took pictures from the beginning. Everything in boxes, to give you an idea of what it looks like put away and what it looks like as I unpack. The last ones will be pics of an army laid out (probably IG or marines since its the largest). I figured I'd be thorough taking pics since its been 10 years since the last time I did it.

But it would seems my "epic itch" is in full drive.

Primarch

Really like these rules Primarch! They are excellent, although I do have some reservations in so much as how much power the Titans will have. But, on the other hand, I reckon beefed up Titans probably are required. One of the things that has struck me about the introduction of hit locations charts for the likes of the Leviathan & Collosus, etc. is that it makes me question the whole points costs for Titans.

For example, a standard Warlord Titan is going to cost you somewhere in the region of 900 points, yet a Leviathan, which arguably has as much firepower, as many shields, can move and first fire, and is pretty much as hard to destroy as a Titan costs about a third of the price? That can't be right.

I'll definitely be having a think about adopting these rules Primarch!

By the way, I'm delighted to hear you are dusting off your minis, look forward to seeing them, and maybe a Primarch battle report?

_________________
Clickable links for more Epic goodness:

Life of Die Channel including Epic Podcasts and Battle Reports

Epic 40K Players Page on Facebook
Net Epic Evolution Rules
Net Epic War! Campaign Rules

Hi!

Your observations on the relative power of praetorians to titans is correct. Prior to hit location templates they were an awful buy. The addition of hit location templates made them "worth the points". Problem was titans are underpowered.

Titans under second edition rules and by extension net epic were ALWAYS under powered. If you ever played AT/ 1st edition epic the nerfing of titans was MARKED.

It wasn't until Titan Legions was released that titans got better, but that was mostly because praetorians weren't so good. Once we upgraded one, the weakness of the other became apparent.

I frequently had the thought that the Imperator rules was a good basis for doing all titans. But it took years of use and seeing them in play to identify what the issues were. Of course you could make pretty balanced and detailed rules at the expense of simplicity, but these systems always lost out in popularity to the original if nerfed system.

I believe the last couple of discussions on the topic were really productive and convinced me that an alternate system, if kept simple, would be acceptable.

The proposed system is very simple. You could use the plasma tokens already provided or dice to keep track of plasma available (2d6 will suffice for this). The maximum reactor cap is also easily remembered since its the maximum plasma you can roll in a turn. Book keeping is as simple as it could possibly be.

This was the easy lift. The trick now was to limit the more obvious abuses. The plasma cap/danger of overload was one easy way. It promotes using plasma efficiently and hording, while having a big payoff has an equally big risk. A nice balance.

I also standardized plasma weapons. The power of the weapons is not that attack per se, but the RANGE. Thus plasma destructor>plasma cannon>plasma blastgun. As it should be. Also note that only the "big boy" plasma weapons that can be mounted on larger titans can use over charged shots. It keeps the blastgun as a good warhound weapon, but not overwhelmingly good as it is in standard rules.

Also note that only larger titan types can use these weapons to their fullest due to their larger reactors This eliminates the current situation of warhounds and reavers being better buys that the warlord. Again, as it should be.

There is no question that these rules make titans POWERFUL. But that is the point. They are NOW worth the points. My philosophy has always been that titans should be kings of the battlefield. PERIOD. The most efficient way to destroy one is another titan. Thing that has not been true for along time. These rules make that true once more.

Note that none of the titan's vulnerabilities have been touched. You still kill them in the usual ways. But you can no longer IGNORE them. The ability to move and shoot in any phase makes them VERY dangerous, as they should be. It adds a layer of tactics that was not there before.

I for one, will no longer use the old rules anymore and when I start playing a few games (and yes I will make battle reports ), I will use the alternate rules.

There is one more thing to add however. I am a big fan of titan experience systems. I will soon post one of those as well (a mix of old and new) to complete this alternate system.

Primarch

Yes, I don't think I can argue with any of that. I appreciate that you've spent a lot of time thinking about this and think you have come up with an excellent solution.

So far as Titan vulnerabilities go, another thing that annoyed me about the Titan v Praetorian business was the fact that the reactor is on the front of Titans but that this isn't the case with the likes of the Leviathan & Collosus. Indeed, pretty much the only way to take down one of these bad boys (if you don't have units behind them) is to hit the bridge. It felt unfair that Titans had two locations on the hit charge where you had a decent chance of killing them whereas as there was only one on the Praetorians.



I was keen to have Titan experience as part of my recent campaign as I too am a big fan of Titan XP. I'm looking forward to seeing what you have come up with for this latest system! Which reminds me, finish campaign battle reports...

Look forward to those battle reports, keep up the great work!

_________________
Clickable links for more Epic goodness:

Life of Die Channel including Epic Podcasts and Battle Reports

Epic 40K Players Page on Facebook
Net Epic Evolution Rules
Net Epic War! Campaign Rules

Hi!

Agreed. The warlord template specifically has the reactor in the front. The reaver and warhound do not have that vulnerability.

I will review and revise the hit location templates to reflect the alternate rules and philosophies.

Primarch

The system looks good, likewise I will try and give these a go when I next get a chance to play.

It might be that the numbers need to be tweaked (I have visions of a Warhound only getting 2 plasma for a couple of turns and pretty much being able to do nothing).
Maybe allow the safe storage of 1 counter (so 1 over the max) and then after that the overloading rules kick in. It is possible that the over storage rules might be a little to harsh, but will have to give them a whirl and purposefully store plasma to see what happens to get a true feel for them.

Definitely can see the Warlord template being tweaked to put the reactor under the the carapace like the Reaver, no one would design a warmachine like that with the power source in such a vulnerable location, even the model(s) seems to imply the reactor is behind the head, under the carapace.

I did also wonder if the hit charts should be tweaked further as it feels a little odd that the shield generators would be tied to the carapace (the reaver and warhound don't have any way of losing their shields as they have no critical that effects them. For me the shield generators would be housed in a safe place like the reactor, and the carapace is just an armoured hull protecting all those fragile internals, so you would have to blow through the carapace before you could take down the shields and reactor.

As well as an experience system, I did wonder about a set of rules in the future that would allow you to modify your titans so you could customise them outside of the weapon choices (sort of like the weapons control tower, but taken to the next level). Things like:

Increased Ammo Capacity
One non-plasma non-close combat weapon rolls an extra attack dice when firing.
The hit location for that weapon on the titan hit chart has its save reduced by 1.

Improved Shield Harmonics
The titan has an extra void shield.

Etc. Obviously everything would need to be costed and it might make things even more complicated, but it could be a fun thing to do.

Matt

Hi all, my 2 cents about these ideas:

- no need to add some special rules for the missiles handling: all missiles are carapace mounted weapons so on a warlord: maximum 2 and 1 on a reaver.
- about plasma token distribution: rolling for them before placing orders may be better. It would make easier moving and keeping coherency on titan battlegroups (the 25cm coherency)
- 1D6 on plasma generation table is very random. Maybe introducing D3 could be interesting.

About the warhounds: I think it's time to move backward on their available weapons and reverting to the ones that were available in the old days: plasma blastgun, TLD, Vulcain bolter and Inferno. The dual Chain Fist Warhound is too strong for the cost (200 points, 4D6+8 in CC + hard to hit on charge), it's a no-brain configuration. As the dual Quake Cannon warhound for 300 points his too much interesting too.

For the Warlord template, it's time to remove the front reactor by a leg/gyro square. It's now a long time since warlord minis don't have their reactor there.

You could even limit the Destructor to Carapace only since it is the biggest weapon in the arsenal and would surely want a more robust mounting point. That would also limit missile/plasma count.



That was partly my concern for the Warhounds as you could be left with the choice of either moving or shooting. D3s might be better.



Duel Chainfists?
Can't say I have ever seen anyone play those or any other CC weapon on a hound. If someone did try and do that against me I would really have to question their gamesmanship. Likewise arming them with Quake/Volcano Cannons.

In my opinion Warhounds shouldn't have access to any CC weapons. I think they should still be able to be armed with some of the other standard weapons, basically everything apart from the Volcano and Quake cannons.
The Gatling Cannon seems relatively fair, likewise the Lase Blaster, they all just do slightly different things (some have more shots, some better range, some better to hit).
The Doomburner gives you an alternative anti armour option, 1 less shot the the TLD, but slightly better save mod. It might be fighting for the same spot as the Blastgun, but it doesn't hit as hard and with the new rules the PBG can roll a lot of attack dice if you get the plasma generation (assuming there is no max to the attack dice?).
The Melta Cannon is an interesting option, sure it could give your Warhounds a really strong short attack, but if it is within 25cm of the enemy it runs the risk of getting pounded in return. Think it is a high risk reward option.

Just my thoughts.

Matt

I have tested them sometimes and they are terrible:

- charge, charge & destroy. I've ripped a "brand new" slasha gargant turn 2 in a game. The slasha could not do anything at all against the warhound. Warlord/reaver/eldar titans not equipped with CC weapons, will be cheesy targets against a 200 point hard-to hit unit. You can even engage 2 or 3 warhounds to be sure to put down a 800-900 points warlord. Turn 1, they charge and find a cover (enemy will not engage them in CC with small units -except knights-, it's useless). Turn 2, they charge and are in CC. With a lot of luck, your opponent may put 1 down, but probably not 2 or 3. And during the charge move, you can try to overrun infantry on the way to the target.


@Primarch:
About the alternate rules for the eldar titans:

You can also make them a charge movement of 0.5cm and they still have the 3+ holofield and will fire in first fire. As they are "Agile", they can also make a 20cm move, turn backward and return to their original position.
I'm a bit concerned about the revenant titans...they're already excellent in the game @400 points for 2. If they get some improvements (and with charge + first fire, they'll be better), they will be terrible!



I think we won't see plasma cannon anymore on warlords. For 25 more points, I have the plasma destructor that can shot at the enemy deployment zone without moving at all saving up plasma points for shooting.

As the Warlod MK3 popped up
we though about a slightly modified damage table/hit location.
There was no way to recognize a reaktor between his legs
We just mad a "leg" hit location out of it.
No need any other canges.

Eldar Titans ar another story.
There are 2 ways a Eldar Titan can perform.

-got blown up with one of the 1st shots(most of the time my favorite one)
-soak up a hell of fire and do not die


If you complain about their power you tried to kill one during your last game and did not manage it

If you say they are to weak you lost some of them with the 1st shots

Hi!

Lots of good ideas people!

Let's go through them.

1. Plasma generation. From what I gather people would prefer each titan get a minimum of 3 plasma per turn. That would always let you move, shoot and repair shields. Thus if we increase the absolute bottom, we decrease the die to d3 thusly:

Warhound 1d3+3; minimum of 4, high of 6
Reaver 1d3+5; minimum of 6, high of 8
Warlord 1d3+7; minimum of 8, high of 10
Imperator 1d3+9; minimum of 10 high of 12

This look better?

2. Warhounds

They will be limited solely to:
Plasma blasgun
Vulcan megabolter
Inferno gun
Turbo laser

These were the only weapons the original blister pack came with for warhounds.

No close combat weapons. Caveat chaos warhounds may include close combat heads and tails.

3. Plasma weapon hard points and costs.
Plasma Blastgun -any location cost 100
Plasma Cannon - carapace only cost 175 (or 150?)
Plasma Destructor -carapace only cost 225 (or 200?)

4. Hit location templates

The front reactor will be replaced by "legs". Reactor no longer visible from the front.

Regarding carapace and shield generators, I always thought they meant that the shield generators were underneath the carapace, so if that gets pierced the generators may suffer. If the name causes angst let us just change the name of "carapace" to shield generator and that should suffice.

On the Reaver REAR template the UPPERMOST weapon location on each side will be changed to "shield generator" (or carapace). Thus the reavers shield generators are vulnerable from the rear like the warlord.

On the Warhound change the two REAR weapon locations to "shield generator" (or carapace).

This means:

a. flanking titans is viable tactic since all the important stuff is in the back and
b. all titans have the same vulnerabilities (shields, reactor, etc)

5. Misc

Lower one shot plasma cost to ONE.

Ulric, I agree on Eldar titans. Its down to some luck. On average these guys just dodge everything and can be almost un-killable, but it only takes one shot to go through to cripple/take them out. Of course a one shot against them is risky business, since they get their holo save (against a direct fire one like the warp missile) or mandatory scatter (versus those with templates like vortex or barrage missiles. I wouldn't worry to much about their balance, their vulnerability more than makes up for any abilities they have.

As for the revenant, I had not paid much attention to them, but they are definitely UNDER PRICED. I wonder if there was some miscommunication or a typo. As I recall the individual price should be 300, making a pair 600. Consider this an "official" fix. The pair is now 600. Under these alternate rules they'd be too good otherwise.

Mattman, I thinking or going the route of your thoughts regarding titan experience. Dividing upgrades along the lines of equipment (like some of the stuff you mention) and crew upgrades. I'll be using the original rules for inspiration.

That about covers everything, thoughts?

Primarch

The plasma blastgun was good @65 points, at least, you could builld some warhounds @250 points each.

A limitation could be placed on the blastgun: no "over charge" possibility.

About my D3 idea instead of D6, maybe not on all titans, but for example:
Warlord: 1d6+3 -> 3 + 2D3 average is 7, min:5 max:9

Caution of not making the warlord without plasma weapons becoming to good. With 6 plasma points, you can:
- move on charge order
- fire in First Fire
- repair void shield on a 4+

About the "too much plasma in reserve" -> Take care of the case when a titan is pinned in close combat: it can not fire, it can not move and it still generates plasma counters without the possibility to spend them (except on void shield).

About praetorians:
- I've made small changes about the Squat ones: +100 points on Colossus, +50 on cyclop. 100 points is at least what's need on the Colossus to balance it. Sure, they are slow but try to buy a warlord/reaver titan with such good weapons and you'll be over 700 points...

Most of the praetorian costs may be increased by at least 50 points, since SMV2, they gain a template for the same cost than the 1+ armor.