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Forgot how powerful Squats are...

 Post subject: Forgot how powerful Squats are...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:28 pm 
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Played against the Squats today for the first time in about a decade with Eldar. I'd forgotten just how powerful they are, their break points are pretty ludicrous! Despite the game ending with the Eldar very much in the ascendancy and ready to completely take over the board, the Squats thrashed me by a massive 45 points to 25! Raging!

Also, note to self never ever play any Titans against Squats, particularly an Eldar one! Only way I can see to deal with them is to make use of the fact that they don't get that many units for their points, swamp the board with bikes and infantry to take a stack of objectives!

Unless anyone has any other suggestions...?

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 Post subject: Re: Forgot how powerful Squats are...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:21 pm 
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Yeah, the high break point is an advantage, but it can also lead to some real blood baths. Assuming your opponent doesn't take a lot of bikes and trikes, you can usually use the Squats' relative lack of mobility against them. The Squat super heavies are tough, but slow and infantry tends not to be mechanized.

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 Post subject: Re: Forgot how powerful Squats are...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:27 am 
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Hi!

This takes me back. :)

I remember when they first came out some thought they were "unbeatable", but several games teaches you where they are vulnerable. Some tips:

1. Do not engage in long range fire fights unless you have built such a long range force optimally. If your not playing Eldar, this strategy of exchanging long range pot shots will probably lose you the game against Squats. Note that in this type of game you basically giving up on maneuver in favor of raw firepower. This is the hardest way to defeat them and requires a tight focus to achieve. When you go for the shooting solution remember to focus fire. Do NOT split fire since the squats break point is too good for halfhearted measures! Shoot infantry type targets in preference to all else. They are soft targets (low armor saves if any) and are the key to route the squat player since their loss gives the highest VP's and limits their objective taking.

If your going for their super heavies with this tactic, its an ALL OR NOTHING affair. Usually you need to open the assault with something that takes down shields quick like Eldar pulsar blasts, ork gargant ball round or warp/vortex missiles. GO BIG or go home with your assault against them, nothing short of these things will take them out quickly enough.

Note that basically the Eldar and then the IG as a distant second can pull off these "shoot 'em up" kind of games. Its hard for chaos and nearly impossible for orks and tyranids.

I suggest letting this strategy for when you are VERY experienced dealing against squats. It the hardest to pull off.

2. Engage quickly and often. The easiest way to beat the squat is what I call the disruption strategy. A proficient squat player will form a well positioned "baseline" where his precious infantry and other assets can mutually support each other and be able to lay a curtain of withering fire only the most long ranged armies can deal with (see number one above).

Therefore the best way to beat them is to disrupt that base line. The easiest way is using fast attack armies like space marines. Use drop pods and thunderhawk gunship and even teleporting terminators. The idea is to engage as much of the squat forces (go for the infantry mostly) and tie them up. The reasoning is that engage squats can't shoot elsewhere but at the most immediate threat. Since their number is small they are very easy to overwhelm. A tactical company in drop pods or assault marines deploying from the air via thunderhawks can totally tie up a whole squat army.

Do NOT worry about casualties. Every unit you lose is worth tying up that much squat firepower. More importantly the rest of your army can advance unhindered since the squat force it tied up defending from this disruption attack.

Throw in your own bike or landspeeder fast attack behind this and the squats will be VERY hard pressed.

Imperial titans, of course are the easiest to equip to deal with squat praetorians, especially warlords with their 4 weapon hard points.

This disruption tactic can be done with tyranids via mycetic spores, ork using that lander and chaos marines using their own t-hawks and IG using moles can accomplish the same disruption.

One particularly nasty trick would be to land via t-hawk a full company of Death Guard chaos space marines and unleash their legion power amongst squat infantry and watch the VP's accrue as the plague kills them off!

This is the EASIEST method to beat the squats. I have achieved one turn knockouts with less experienced squat players and even experienced ones can find it quite difficult to defend against this.

Most other strategies are permutations of these two, some with more than a little of one or the other.

Since you played Eldar the key is focus their fire. One ploy I like is using an Eldar titan with double pulsars. A potential of 2d6 shots is HUGE. ON average you are guaranteed to strip even the mightiest squat mobile fortress of ALL its shields. Use terrain to hide the titan and their great maneuverability and speed can get their in position and fire the pulsars which have a range of 100cm! Follow up this strike with tempest tank strikes and their high armor save modifier should punch some good wholes in the squat praetorian. Prism cannons in tandem can make an unshielded squat praetorians day pretty sour....

Use wave serpents to bring in elite striking scorpions to confront the squat infantry. The serpents shield is virtually impregnable and can even use it offensive before disgorging its lethal cargo.

Use doomweavers to plaster those buildings and other terrain the squat player uses to hide his precious infantry. A turn squat infantry moves to avoid the webs is a turn they can first fire!

Jetbike companies! A swarm of these guys can not only blunt the squat bikes, but are enough to wipe them out and keep going! Use two such companies and the squats are in for a short day...

Want to laugh? Bring the avatar and have it charge straight for the squat super heavy. That fixed 2+ save can do wonders.....

Its all permutations of strategies one and two. Focus your fire with the right units and disrupt, disrupt, disrupt! A squat player that is permitted to keep an intact baseline will cut you to pieces! Do let his baseline go unchallenged!

I can field any directed questions on the matter, good luck!

Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: Forgot how powerful Squats are...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:34 am 
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Thanks both for the speedy responses, especially to Primarch whose posting was as epic as our favourite game! It was a joy to read that!

Agree that purchasing close-combat infantry is definitely the way to go, they should cut through the Squat troops like a hot knife through butter! I did manage to send Howling Banshees into a good head-to-head battle in wave serpents but my Scorpions were horribly out of position and never got properly into the fight.

And buying even more bikes does seem the way to go (I did have one Wind Rider Host but this was largely nullified by the Squat's own bikes and trikes), when I referred to being in the ascendancy, what I was getting at was that I'd have expected to be able to capture several objectives in the following turn through simply having a more maouverable force.

I used the Tempests, Prism Cannon and a Falcon Host to blow the enemy Colossus to hell in the first go but not before it used it's Doomsday Cannon to devastating effect upon my Eldar Titan! I had every intention of using the Prism Cannon to smash the Colossus & Land Train but never got the chance to even fire off a single shot! There a two big problems with the Eldar Titans against the Squats;
i) To keep their fields reasonably protective, the Titans should stay on advance. The Squat Colossus always fires in the first fire segment, while the Goliath Mega Cannon are always going to be ordered on ff. This means you are going to have to pray that by some fluke the Titan will survive until advance...
ii) Given that the Squats have so much artillery that ignores those fields, the chances of surviving until advance are slim!
Hiding the Titan isn't much of an option as this would just mean forfeiting the chance of unleashing that firepower upon the Colossus / Land Train... Think the Grav Tanks, Tempests, Prism Cannon are the best way to deal with these super-heavies, at least they are out of sight until they pop up and have had their shot at causing some damage!

One other point that I wanted to mention was how frustrating firing upon the Squat Overlord airships was; every time I "hit", I had to roll on a chart in the Netepic rulebook. 1-3 means the shot passes through harmlessly, something which seems a bit daft; statistically 50% of "hits" actually miss?!!! I wasted a lot of firepower firing at those damn airships! I'm using a fairly aged version of Netepic, so I don't know if this is something that was maybe sorted later...

One point of note is that the airships are only flyers/floaters that I own in any force. I was really put off back in the day by flyers as I felt they were a bit too powerful, I didn't want the focus of the game veering away from ground-based combat. But I suppose now I shall have to bite the bullet and invest in some flyers for Marines, Eldar & Orks!

Thanks again for the responses! It's brilliant finding some like-minded people to discuss this with!

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 Post subject: Re: Forgot how powerful Squats are...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:42 pm 
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Hi!

If you using net epic rules keep in mind that artillery ALWAYS rolls the scatter dice versus eldar titans with holofields. Even with direct line of sight! Sounds like you were using the the original rules were direct fire artillery did not scatter versus them. Unless the squat player is very lucky many more will scatter and miss than land on target. This is a MAJOR change instituted by net epic and gives eldar titans a major uplift.

The overlords are indeed annoying, but you miss one key point. Although you are correct and 50% of hits are nullified, 1 in 6 will destroy it with no save! Thus if your going for it shoot attacks with lots of dice and every 6 roll will down one airship. A squad of dark reapers is good for this task.

Fliers are also an effective way of dealing with then in aerial close combat.

Updated versions are here: http://www.netepic.org/netepic.html

Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: Forgot how powerful Squats are...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:34 pm 
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Cheers Primarch, I shall have a good read at those - it will probably save me asking a lot of stupid questions here!

The scattering of barrages against the Eldar Titans is a big and very sensible improvement, without that change I would never have taken Eldar Titan again when playing against Squats.

Believe it or not I got about a dozen hits on the Overlords, most of which I rolled between 1-3, and my enemy saved every other time. Luck deserted me and I failed to get that all important six!

Thanks again for all the help and advice!

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 Post subject: Re: Forgot how powerful Squats are...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:19 pm 
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Hi!

Those Gold books aren't the final ones (those seem to be on the verge on being finalized), but it will be pretty close and you'll see the myriad of improvements we've added over the years.

I hear ya on the overlords. Its all down to some luck. I was once lucky enough to kill 2 out of 3 (thus getting the company card VP's) with a volley of zero armor modifier shots, the squat player was pissed!! :)

Some pulsar shots from an eldar titan are pretty good to blast them too. But unless its vital to the game, I tend to ignore them, or use aircraft to tie them up.

Check out the gold books, they are great stuff!!

Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: Forgot how powerful Squats are...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:38 pm 
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primarch wrote:
Hi!

Those Gold books aren't the final ones (those seem to be on the verge on being finalized), but it will be pretty close and you'll see the myriad of improvements we've added over the years.

I hear ya on the overlords. Its all down to some luck. I was once lucky enough to kill 2 out of 3 (thus getting the company card VP's) with a volley of zero armor modifier shots, the squat player was pissed!! :)

Some pulsar shots from an eldar titan are pretty good to blast them too. But unless its vital to the game, I tend to ignore them, or use aircraft to tie them up.

Check out the gold books, they are great stuff!!

Primarch


I look forward to having a good look through the gold books once I get them downloaded. I'm very excited to see how the game has been improved, particularly as it now looks like I will be playing Epic regularly again!

I can totally understand why the Squat player was pissed off about that! I will never forget having a game of Epic in Games Workshop (must have been over 20 years ago!); Eldar v Marines 2000pt battle. I was the Marines and one of my Land Raiders had nicked an objective to draw the game. The guy in the shop had fired everything he had... except for his Warlock. He hit me with a bloody laspistol and all I had to do was roll 2+ to save! Guess what? I rolled a one! The other workers in the shop agreed that their colleague did not deserve the victory, but it didn't help. I never got over the humiliation!

As a footnote to this sorry tale, I think it's worth mentioning that I'm sure this is where the phrase "Epic fail" originates from.

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 Post subject: Re: Forgot how powerful Squats are...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:42 am 
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The Bissler wrote:
primarch wrote:
Hi!

Those Gold books aren't the final ones (those seem to be on the verge on being finalized), but it will be pretty close and you'll see the myriad of improvements we've added over the years.

I hear ya on the overlords. Its all down to some luck. I was once lucky enough to kill 2 out of 3 (thus getting the company card VP's) with a volley of zero armor modifier shots, the squat player was pissed!! :)

Some pulsar shots from an eldar titan are pretty good to blast them too. But unless its vital to the game, I tend to ignore them, or use aircraft to tie them up.

Check out the gold books, they are great stuff!!

Primarch


I look forward to having a good look through the gold books once I get them downloaded. I'm very excited to see how the game has been improved, particularly as it now looks like I will be playing Epic regularly again!

I can totally understand why the Squat player was pissed off about that! I will never forget having a game of Epic in Games Workshop (must have been over 20 years ago!); Eldar v Marines 2000pt battle. I was the Marines and one of my Land Raiders had nicked an objective to draw the game. The guy in the shop had fired everything he had... except for his Warlock. He hit me with a bloody laspistol and all I had to do was roll 2+ to save! Guess what? I rolled a one! The other workers in the shop agreed that their colleague did not deserve the victory, but it didn't help. I never got over the humiliation!

As a footnote to this sorry tale, I think it's worth mentioning that I'm sure this is where the phrase "Epic fail" originates from.


Hi!

LOL! Great stories! ;D

It was once said by the local that in my heyday when I ran my own hobby store and I played epic I had played over 200 games in a 3 year span. I remember a two week Christmas vacation where I played 20 games! Man those were the days!

I got so many stories like yours. I remember an Ork versus Squat game. Usually its pretty tough for orks to beat squats but that day the gargants armed with gutbuster ball rounds took out THREE colossi!!! Needless to say the squats lost...

On the other hand I remember an ork player juicing up the wierdboy and sucked up maximum power and roll the "'ead bangz" result killing and entire clan with the blast and a nearby gargants ammo dump went up in smoke and took the entire nearby clan. Nearly 40% of the ork army was slain by the backlash. The ork player immediately forfeited. One of the shortest games I've seen.

I got a million of those. Good times!

Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: Forgot how powerful Squats are...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:13 pm 
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primarch wrote:
I got so many stories like yours. I remember an Ork versus Squat game. Usually its pretty tough for orks to beat squats but that day the gargants armed with gutbuster ball rounds took out THREE colossi!!! Needless to say the squats lost...

On the other hand I remember an ork player juicing up the wierdboy and sucked up maximum power and roll the "'ead bangz" result killing and entire clan with the blast and a nearby gargants ammo dump went up in smoke and took the entire nearby clan. Nearly 40% of the ork army was slain by the backlash. The ork player immediately forfeited. One of the shortest games I've seen.

I got a million of those. Good times!

Primarch


I love stories like these. I know some players don't like it, but I love the quirkiness and unpredictability of SM2.

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 Post subject: Re: Forgot how powerful Squats are...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:31 pm 
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Dwarf Supreme wrote:

I love stories like these. I know some players don't like it, but I love the quirkiness and unpredictability of SM2.


Totally agree DS! I've recently introduced my nephew to Epic, but the moment he really began to love the game was when the following situation happened; I shot his Warhound, blowing his Turbo Laser Destructor clean off. When I rolled for scatter the gun landed on top of one of my Ogryns, crushing him to a pulp! He found this hilarious (even though the flashback blew his Warhound's head apart) and was going on about it for hours.

I've had countless games of Epic over the years and this was the first time I'd ever seen one of my own stands killed in such a friendly fire incident. It's the fact that no two games are the same that makes me always want to come back to Epic...

Primarch, that story about the Weirdboy Tower is genius, absolutely love it! And 200 games over a 3 year period is incredible!

PS Also loved your use of "Colossi" as the plural of "Colossus"! You aren't an Alan Partridge fan are you? (There was a joke about "Lexi" being the plural of "Lexus" cars.)

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 Post subject: Re: Forgot how powerful Squats are...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:19 am 
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The Bissler wrote:
Dwarf Supreme wrote:

I love stories like these. I know some players don't like it, but I love the quirkiness and unpredictability of SM2.


Totally agree DS! I've recently introduced my nephew to Epic, but the moment he really began to love the game was when the following situation happened; I shot his Warhound, blowing his Turbo Laser Destructor clean off. When I rolled for scatter the gun landed on top of one of my Ogryns, crushing him to a pulp! He found this hilarious (even though the flashback blew his Warhound's head apart) and was going on about it for hours.

I've had countless games of Epic over the years and this was the first time I'd ever seen one of my own stands killed in such a friendly fire incident. It's the fact that no two games are the same that makes me always want to come back to Epic...

Primarch, that story about the Weirdboy Tower is genius, absolutely love it! And 200 games over a 3 year period is incredible!

PS Also loved your use of "Colossi" as the plural of "Colossus"! You aren't an Alan Partridge fan are you? (There was a joke about "Lexi" being the plural of "Lexus" cars.)


Hi!

I will have to contact the Alan Partridge estate and issue a cease and desist for using words ending in "i" as plural. I invented that! ;D

I have always felt that although later versions of the epic rules were technically better designed and included better more modern game mechanics, failed to capture the essence of the warhammer 40k universe.

I don't play epic for a streamlined, purely tactical experience. I got tons of other rules for that. For me, its precisely that "quirkiness" that makes the game enjoyable. The amount of crazy stuff that can and does happen makes me come back for more!

Some more anecdotes...

1. Space wolf companies have multiple HQ like units with terminator armor and a fixed save of 6+. The space wolf player left the whole contingent of HQ's from one of his great companies. I was playing IG and landed an accurate indirect barrage smack dab on the 4 HQ units for a decapitating strike.

It was all good until my opponent rolled FOUR SIXES SAVING ALL OF THEM!

Totally demoralizing. :{[]

2. Gargants are scary things. I once saw a ork gargant get hit with a vortex missile and then a warp missile. It was ablaze and on fire. Each turn more fires would erupt but it would not blow. It managed to advance and stand on top of a objective while being hammer constantly. But the ork player kept rolling low enough for it not to succumb to fire (including rolling a couple of ones, the only number he could roll without it blowing...)

That gargant SURVIVED the battle, secured the objective and won the game!

Gargants are TOUGH! :wah

3. Some times the chaos gos hate you! I saw a once excellent deployment and maneuvering of the Death Legion. It got close to a tactical company of IG. On average such a tactic will spell doom because the infantry only saves on a six, then the infected once starts a chain reactive of plague.

After selecting the plague target the IG player rolls the save, a SIX, plague stops before it starts no casualties and the IG player obliterates the exposed chaos player..... :tut

4. Imperator titans save on 2d6, pretty tough. Its leg joint is a 2+, impossible! Its shields were finally all stripped, but the only thing within range were units with shots that had a -1 armor save modifier. He takes the shot only one lands. The Imperator player needs a 3+ of two d6. He rolls snake eyes!!! (2). Rolls on damage table. Rolls the MAXIMUM result. Titan scatters and falls on nearby building with infantry crushing it and killing them all.

That unit was awarded the single most devastating shot in epic history..... :nooo

I smiled a lot remembering this stuff. :)

Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: Forgot how powerful Squats are...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:09 am 
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primarch wrote:
I have always felt that although later versions of the epic rules were technically better designed and included better more modern game mechanics, failed to capture the essence of the warhammer 40k universe.


Agreed. This is why I'm eagerly awaiting for NetEpic Gold to be finalized. Although my nephew and I like E:A. we both prefer SM2. We've been talking lately about getting in some games and he is highly interested in giving NetEpic a try.

Primarch, do the plans for NetEpic still include the idea of having the documents formatted so that they can be professionally printed and bound?

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 Post subject: Re: Forgot how powerful Squats are...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:02 am 
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Dwarf Supreme wrote:
primarch wrote:
I have always felt that although later versions of the epic rules were technically better designed and included better more modern game mechanics, failed to capture the essence of the warhammer 40k universe.


Agreed. This is why I'm eagerly awaiting for NetEpic Gold to be finalized. Although my nephew and I like E:A. we both prefer SM2. We've been talking lately about getting in some games and he is highly interested in giving NetEpic a try.

Primarch, do the plans for NetEpic still include the idea of having the documents formatted so that they can be professionally printed and bound?


Hi!

If I am not mistaken the formats used by WMN are designed to precisely do what you suggest. I'm leaving the printing issue until its all done in order to decide what to do.

If anyone has insight on the printing process your recommendations are welcome.

Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: Forgot how powerful Squats are...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:54 am 
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primarch wrote:
If anyone has insight on the printing process your recommendations are welcome.


Moscovian knows a thing or two about the printing process.

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