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Squats back from CanCon (The Overlord Rant)
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=134&t=30852		 Page 1 of 6
Author:  Elsaurio [ Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Squats back from CanCon (The Overlord Rant)
So last weekend was Cancon, the biggest Epic tournament in the world (or so I believe: 38 players, 6 games, uncomped). All my work drumming up the space dwarves recently has encouraged others and there were three armies taking the field.

This was going to be a great opportunity to see how other generals handle the list and a good chance to confirm or deny a couple suspicions about what units needed work.

Just to clarify this was a EA tourney with some of the best players in the world (possibly) throwing down against the Squats.

Here's the army lists; some are surprisingly hard:

SQUATS

14. Thurgrim’s Stronghold Squats (Thurgrims Stronghold 1.5) 1

1. WARRIOR BROTHERHOOD [525]
1 Hearthguard unit, 9 Warrior units, Grand Warlord, Rhino, 4 Thunderer units

2. BERZERKER BROTHERHOOD [175]
1 Hearthguard unit, 5 Berzerker units, Terminte Tunneller

3. THUDD GUN [225]
6 Thudd Gun units

4. THUNDERFIRE [100]
2 Thunderfire

5. MOLE MORTAR [175]
6 Mole Mortar units

6. OVERLORD [475]
2 Overlord Airship

7. IRON HAWK [250]
2 Iron Eagle, 2 Iron Hawk

8. GOLIATH [300]
2 Goliath Mega-Cannon

9. LAND TRAIN [525]
1 Land Train Engine, 3 Berserker Battle Car, Living Ancestor, Bomb Battle Car

10. IRON HAWK [250]
2 Iron Hawk, 2 Iron Eagle

15. Thurgrim’s Stronghold Squats (Thurgrims Stronghold 1.5) 2

1. Berzerker Brotherhood 1 Hearthguard unit
 7 Berzerker units
Rhinos
2. Berzerker Brotherhood 1 Hearthguard unit
 5 Berzerker units
Rhinos
3. Berzerker Brotherhood 1 Hearthguard unit
 5 Berzerker units
Termite Tunnellers
4. Thunderfire 2x Thunderfire

5. Thunderfire 2x Thunderfire

6. Bikers Guild 3x Guild Bike unit
3x Guild trike
Grand Warlord

7. Overlord Overlord Airship

8. Overlord Overlord Airship

9. Overlord Overlord Airship

10. Overlord Overlord Airship

11. Overlord Overlord Airship

12 Goliath
 2x Goliath Mega­Cannon

13. Land Train
 1 Land Train Engine 2x Berserker Battle Car Bomb Battle Car

16. Thurgrim’s Stronghold Squats (Thurgrims Stronghold 1.5) 3

1. Berzerker Brotherhood - 200
1 Hearthguard unit
 7 Berzerker units
Termite Tunneller

2. Berzerker Brotherhood - 200
1 Hearthguard unit
 7 Berzerker units
4 x Rhino
3. Berzerker Brotherhood - 175
1 Hearthguard unit
 7 Berzerker units
4 X Rhino

4. Thunderfire - 100
2 x Thunderfire Cannons

5. Thunderfire - 100
2 x Thunderfire Cannons

6. Thunderfire - 100
2 x Thunderfire Cannons

7. Bikers Guild - 225
3 x Bike Units
Guildmaster
3 x Guild Trike

8. Bikers Guild - 275
3 x Bike Units
Grand Warlord
3 x Guild Trike

9. Overlord - 250
Overlord Airship

10. Overlord - 250
Overlord Airship

11. Overlord - 250
Overlord Airship

12. Colossus - 500
1 x Colossus
Living Ancestor

13. Land Train - 375
1 x Land Train Engine
Berserker Battle Car
Bomb Battle Car
Author:  Elsaurio [ Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Squats back from CanCon
The official results have not been posts yet, but anyone want to hazard a guess on which army list was rated the hardest?
Author:  Steve54 [ Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Squats back from CanCon
Elsaurio wrote:

Just to clarify this was a EA tourney with some of the best players in the world (possibly) throwing down against the Squats.


I'm sure the European Championships would accept an Australian team if they want to try and back this up ;D
Author:  mordoten [ Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Squats back from CanCon
Yes indeed we would!
Author:  Onyx [ Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Squats back from CanCon
Flying 6000km's to play 6 games of Epic is enough thanks.
The Europeans can keep the European Championships to themselves! ;)

As to the tournament results... I'll wait and see what others think (as most know my opinions on this top tier list).
Author:  Elsaurio [ Sat Jan 30, 2016 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Squats back from CanCon
Onyx wrote:
Flying 6000km's to play 6 games of Epic is enough thanks.
The Europeans can keep the European Championships to themselves! ;)

As to the tournament results... I'll wait and see what others think (as most know my opinions on this top tier list).

Hey Onxy, I was sorely disappointed that I didn't get to play you or any of the WA boys at Cancon. Kept drawing Legions players.

I'd rally value your feedback on the Squats at Cancon, and the tournament itself as a whole. PM me sometime.
Author:  Apocolocyntosis [ Sat Jan 30, 2016 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Squats back from CanCon
Steve54 wrote:
Elsaurio wrote:

Just to clarify this was a EA tourney with some of the best players in the world (possibly) throwing down against the Squats.


I'm sure the European Championships would accept an Australian team if they want to try and back this up ;D



vassal.


screen cast it.
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Sat Jan 30, 2016 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Squats back from CanCon
Ohhhh that's actually a neat IDEA. Could pull an American team then too! [hums "America - f*ck yeah!" ;) ]
Author:  mordoten [ Sat Jan 30, 2016 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Squats back from CanCon
Yeah, i guess it could be educational for you non-Europeans to get spanied 5-0 in turn 3 in every game...
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Sat Jan 30, 2016 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Squats back from CanCon
and now suddenly this thread turned unpleasant ...
Author:  mordoten [ Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Squats back from CanCon
Tjat was a joke you know. I actually expect the aussies to whoop my ass considering how active their scene is.
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Squats back from CanCon
Actually I'm not sure you're still not taking the piss. :D
Author:  Elsaurio [ Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Squats back from CanCon
jimmyzimms wrote:
Actually I'm not sure you're still not taking the piss. :D


Don't you worry, the Aussie scene does include an awful lot of trash talking, all in good nature. It does contain some very good players who will take you apart if you're more than 0.1cm out of the optimal position. But this thread isn't about nationalistic Jingo, all that was demonstrated is that Squats had their trial by fire, and came out on top.

The Overlord heavy list took out first place, defeating everyone, with the other two not too far behind. It highlights that zerkers/thunder fires/overlords are thought of as the 'best picks' in the army by far.
Author:  dptdexys [ Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Squats back from CanCon
Elsaurio wrote:
The official results have not been posts yet, but anyone want to hazard a guess on which army list was rated the hardest?


After looking at the lists used for Cancon I'd guess that the 2 lists that take advantage of the cheap thunderfire and bezerker formations to get 13 activations, especially in good hands will do better than the 10 activation list.

They allow squats to stall with the cheaper formations activating first and saving the overlords and WEs until the opponent has moved most of their army. With some of the lists having 8 or 9 activations it looks possible that all the overlords could have a full turn of firing without any comebacks.

Epic-UK worked out there was a problem with the cheapness of those two formations quickly and upped the size of both to make it harder to spam cheap the stuff in that way, I cannot understand why those testing the NetEA version haven't worked that out yet.

Almost all the small WEs have a similar problem that you have stated for the overlords, take 1 or 2 of any (Warhounds, Shadowswords, Fortress' , EofV, Overlords, Decimators, Ferals, Deathwheels and so on) and opponents find them OK. Take 4 or 5 of them and its a different "kettle of fish" opponents then don't usually have enough ways of handling all of them and they shine.

By making the cheap activations bigger and more expensive (you can't just make them more expensive as they still have to be a viable choice and usable) squat players wanting to use similar lists will have to choose between taking 2 less stalling formations and having less free reign with the overlords at the end of turn 1 or taking 1 less overlord and having less firepower over the whole game. Either way it does bring the effectiveness of the overlords down slightly from an opponents view.
Author:  Elsaurio [ Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Squats back from CanCon
dptdexys wrote:
Elsaurio wrote:
The official results have not been posts yet, but anyone want to hazard a guess on which army list was rated the hardest?


After looking at the lists used for Cancon I'd guess that the 2 lists that take advantage of the cheap thunderfire and bezerker formations to get 13 activations, especially in good hands will do better than the 10 activation list.

They allow squats to stall with the cheaper formations activating first and saving the overlords and WEs until the opponent has moved most of their army. With some of the lists having 8 or 9 activations it looks possible that all the overlords could have a full turn of firing without any comebacks.

Epic-UK worked out there was a problem with the cheapness of those two formations quickly and upped the size of both to make it harder to spam cheap the stuff in that way, I cannot understand why those testing the NetEA version haven't worked that out yet.

Almost all the small WEs have a similar problem that you have stated for the overlords, take 1 or 2 of any (Warhounds, Shadowswords, Fortress' , EofV, Overlords, Decimators, Ferals, Deathwheels and so on) and opponents find them OK. Take 4 or 5 of them and its a different "kettle of fish" opponents then don't usually have enough ways of handling all of them and they shine.

By making the cheap activations bigger and more expensive (you can't just make them more expensive as they still have to be a viable choice and usable) squat players wanting to use similar lists will have to choose between taking 2 less stalling formations and having less free reign with the overlords at the end of turn 1 or taking 1 less overlord and having less firepower over the whole game. Either way it does bring the effectiveness of the overlords down slightly from an opponents view.


This a good post with a lot of things I agree on.

First up, us NetEA boys are well aware of the problems of bezerkers and thunder fires, and they're next on the repair list.

As for the number of activations, what you've presented is a very good description on why it is important to have lots of activations, and how to play the 'activation metagame'. However I kind of find that Squats partially sidestep most of the problems with activation: the super long range and maneuverability around cover means that Overlords are able to hit what they want and where they want (goliaths and spotter doom cannons too) meaning that the squat player generally doesn't have to wait - he can jump forward an take out that shadowsword or whatever before it gets a chance to take down the overlords.

I see your point about spamming too many of the DC3 war machine could cause problems. Too many war hounds.... Fair enough. There is a local player with lots of baneblades and shadowswords that aren't too much of a problem.
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