StevekCole wrote:
Agree on that, overlords can be great for breaking fragile formations early doors but your opponent has to have made a deployment error (if they stick something behind terrain and you're playing without TLOS as we do in the UK you can't get it turn 1). Even in cover as Dave says you're on 5s possibly 6s. I've never taken out anything major on turn 1, or lost anything major on turn 1 to overlords where there wasn't a deployment error. Admittedly, a high activation count helps here as you can keep overlords back at deployment and chose the best targets.
I'd never send a single overlord against something like a warhound or shadowsword as they'll just turn round and destroy it but maybe I'm missing a trick. Even on 4s to hit the odds are that you'll do less than a wound against a shadowsword (0.75) or shielded warhound (0.43) and both would (at least) break you in return.
I know you're looking at the cheap activation count Elsaurio. I think that will help but there does seem to be a local meta issue here, if people are playing TLOS at tournies in Aus then overlords will be stronger than at tournies in Europe, plus as pointed out in another thread, you get into all sorts of gamey things like modelling them a foot off the ground. I'm not sure I have much of a solution for this if the way events are being run is fundementally different. Not a facetious question, just curious, but do you not find TLOS in epic leads to longer games and more bickering?
I think spotter might also be an issue here, if you double the overlord forward with your first activation and can then spank someone with a macro barrage with your 2nd (or even 11 non macro bp from a colossus) that makes life a lot easier.
My other totally irrelevant thought is if you're playing TLOS then why aren't players spamming silver towers at these tournaments? Sure the range is a bit less but you get Macros and can pop down and hide again? Plus they're fearless and once you get into 45cm range you have double the firepower of an overlord, ouch!
As stated in the post just above this, 90% of our games use abstract cover, and it was just this tournament that had rulebook cover rules.
Thanks for taking the time to crunch some numbers, but I'd like to crunch some more. When everyone is poo-poohing my claim about overlord firepower being to high, they invariably calculate it's abilities vs 4+ RA or some other titan void shield situation. While a Overlords are pretty good against 4+ RA, it is the worst situation for them (this being the domain of MW and TK). But let's run some further numbers
Warhound or Overlord shooting at Shadowsword (4+RA)Warhounds are universally seen as one of the best and most versatile DC 3 War Engine out there. There are calls to try to restrict space marines and guard to stop taking 2 x 1 Warhounds. Lets look at their shooting.
At 45cm, and taking into account the slow firing Plasma Blastgun the warhound is going to do
0.75 wounds a turn to Baneblade.
A Overlord shooting at the same Shadowsword? The same
0.75 but it's able to do it at 75cm range with the ability to pop up over cover.
An Overlord even puts more hits if it's allowed to get within the same 45cm
(0.79) or even 15cm
(0.83)Conclusion: an Overlord outshoots a Warhound and has longer range and the ability to pop up around cover.
It gets even worse if you move to targets with lighter armour:
Warhound vs Predator at 45cm:
1.5 woundsOverlord vs Predator at 45cm:
1.83 woundsWarhound vs Imperial Guard Infantry at 45cm:
3.5 woundsOverlord vs Imperial Guard Infantry at 45cm:
4.3 woundsShadowswrd or Overlord shooting at Warhound (4+RA)The Shadowsword is one hands down best and cheapest way to field a long-range anti-titan weapon.
Lets look at what happens when you're trying to bring down the warhound in the previous example. 1 Shadowsword isn't going to do it, let's try 2
2 Shadowswords vs warhound at 75cm: Both void shields taken down,
1.3 wounds on the titan
2 Overlords vs Warhound at 75cm: Both voidshields taken down,
1.7 wounds on the titan.
People forget that titans are not just armour, the void shields have to come down first and that Overlords are great at taking that off whereas TK is wasted. Holofields and Living Metal? Also better for mass battlecannon shots than a TK weapon.
But...but I can strip shields with a different unit before I shoot with the Shadowsword! But if you're bringing in supporting units to make the Shadowsword bring down a target, then by rights the squat player should be able to bring in other units to help the Overlord...*cough*cyclops*cough*
I'm not even going to calculate weaker targets, as the Overlord is easily better.
Conclusion: the Overlord outshoots even the Shadowsword.
Comparison vs Cover, target choiceI never meant to give the impression that the Overlord could 'total kill any major target in turn one'. It doesn't have to 'kill' an target, but take a few wounds off, add a few blast markers, strip a few void shields and a second overlords (or some other part of the squat army) helps finish the job. Remember that you have 5-6 of them!
I've found two overlords are a reliable way to destroy or at least break an opposing warhound/shadowsword. Two overlords will also put a serious dent in any mid range tank/infantry formation.
The ability to get line of sight is also under rated. Let's do a thought experiment with an army with 5 shadowswords. On the first turn you might get:
]1 Shadowsword with a clear line of sight to a good target
2 Shadowswords having to shoot through cover, or forced to shoot at a mediocre target
2 Shadowswords being unable to see anything, or only being able to shoot some useless scout unit.Compare to 5 Overlords
2-3 Overlords being able to get a clear shot at a prime target
2-3 Overlords having to shoot into cover or a mediocre target.It gets even better as the game wears on, with the Overlords getting easier and easier shots and the ability to sustain, which dramatically boosts their damage output (sustaining does little to help a volcano cannon or plasma blastgun.)
i'm happy to hear counter arguments!