taiaha wrote:
Roadkill Zombie wrote:
So you are still gonna go with the idea that the Land Train is based on the reaver titan as far as protection and power level huh? I think that is not an accurate representation of the land train at all.
Look back through the old 2nd edition game and compare the Squat super heavies with the Imperial Titans.
Leviathans had as much firepower and as many void shields as two warhound titans (taking warhounds in squads of two was how you took warhounds back then).
Colossus had two more void shields and about as much firepower as a Reaver Titan.
The Land Train had one more void shield than a Warlord titan and with the right battlecars, could have just about the same firepower.
What made all of the Squat Super Heavy Vehicles not quite as good as those titans was that as soon as the last void shield went down on the squat super heavies, the next shot was almost always powerful enough to just destroy it outright.
Titans had an extra layer of protection that made you choose a location on the titan, based off of how much of the titan you could see and what direction the titan was facing. Then you had to roll aiming dice, which sometimes made you hit a different area of the titan you were hoping for, or in a lot of cases, completely miss or have your shot hit blocking terrain instead.
The reason I bring up the way all of this used to work is because i have had discussions about Squat super heavies and how they compare to titans many many times. And one overlying thing that a lot of people don't seem to see is what power level the Squat Super Heavies really are. The only thing that ever kept squat super heavies from being just like titans was that aim dice mechanic.
In epic Armageddon, that aim dice mechanic is gone, and now all of the titans have been brought down closer to where the Squat super heavy vehicles already were.
So with that in mind, why does anyone think that the Squats do not deserve to have War Engines on par with the Titans of other races?
Why are they being limited to the power level of only the reaver titan? ( which after reading a few bat reps on this very site, list reavers as ok but sort of meh to begin with?)
Why can't we have the squat war engines represent more like I've mentioned above?...i.e. Leviathan similar to two warhounds, colossus similar to a reaver, and the Land Train similar to a Warlord. While the Cyclops falling between a reaver and a warlord. Both in firepower and in protection on all of these WE?
Hi RZ, I never played Squats back in 2nd ed - it's always interesting to hear the history.
I think the biggest issue with having more powerful WEs for the Squats would be pricing them. A 800pt WE in a 3000pt game is such a suck on activation count that it's rarely seen. Even 600pt WE are pretty rare in the games my group plays (though I love my Gargant...
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Secondly, if the Squat WE were priced over 500 points, you'd only be able to take one. Since they are such a strong part of the list, I think most players would prefer the chance to take 2 slightly weaker WE's rather than one stronger one.
I can totally understand wanting to field more war engines. But having them cost less points by toning down their firepower isn't really the answer to that problem because it creates even more problems. One of those being spamming those low cost war engines to a rediculous point in higher point games.
I know people play 3000 points in tournaments but honestly, Epic was never really designed with such a low point level in mind. It has always been more about playing massive games with many models per side.
I do understand people do want to play tournaments though and at such high points you would never really be able to finish one in a decent amount of time. So how then, do you balance the two problems?
My answer would be increase the points to 4500, start the tournament earlier in the day, and time the turns.
This lets you play the more expensive models, yet keep the games fast because those points aren't spent on tons of tiny models that you spend many minutes moving, and also keeps you thinking fast about what you are going to do because of the limited amount of time you have to do it in.