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Squats: Thurgrimm's Stronghold List, 1.4

 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm's Stronghold List, 1.4
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:19 pm 
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Had a game using this version of the rules against Autopilot' Salamanders.
Tried for the first time the Land Trains. My army:
- 2 Guild Bikers
- 2 Warrior formations (one upgraded to 14 warriors)
- 2 Land Trains with 3 Berseker cars.
- Overlord
- Tudd Guns
- 2 Robot formations
- thunderfires

The Salamanders army:
Whirlwinds
Scouts
Tbolts
2 Thunderhawk Gunships with a Devastator and a assault formation
3 Tacticals with a Dreadnought each in Drop Pods
Strike Cruiser
Terminators


The drop pods came in on turn 2 giving me some free reign in turn 1. In turn 2 a combined strike from the thunderhawks, terminators, assault and devastators got rid of a large muttualy supporting group of thunderfires, warriors and thudd guns protecting one of the objectives.
The drop pods fell on the center of the table away from the action.
While this was happening my bikes were assaulting the lone whirlwinds and taking hold of the enemy's blitz.

On turn 3 the land trains fired away with their cannons doing most of the damage but suffered an assault by the terminators and a group of tacticals. Being both in firefight range I had 16 4+ dice in FF. Nice...

Finished with a victory for the squats 2-0 on turn 3


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm's Stronghold List, 1.4
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:20 pm 
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Very nice! What did you think about the list? Specifically the land trains and the robots? Did you think the upgraded warrior formation was worth it?

What did Autopilot think of the list?

Did you use the spotter rule?

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm's Stronghold List, 1.4
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:02 pm 
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I've always used the robots in my games and I keep my opiniion. They are a hard unit. The formation is small but, unlike the squat infantry they don't die in droves. With the change to AV they got even better. They seem to be avoided when possible but they perform great when in defensive duties.

The spotter rule I didn't had to use it really. The only spotter unit I had was the overlord and t just wasn't needed in the game. But I have used it before and the current rule seems to be ok.

I most enjoyed using the current rule for stubborn. After all the changes and complex rules that came before the 2+, 1+ to rally seems the best so far. Easy to understand for everyone. But the maximum 15 cm retreat range doesn't make sense with fast bikers or iron eagles. Wouldn´t "a single retreat move" be a better option?

The Land Trains, mmmmhhh I tried them because I was plain curious about the possibilites of customisation with the cars but to be honest found all the options except the rad bomb to be pretty lame. It seems that now the train is all about the engine and it's doomsday cannon. The rad bomb, having IF and MW combines with the Doomsday and is pretty powerful which is reflected in the 125 point upgrade.
The berserker cars work well in there if you intend to use the Train in a offensive role, moving up to support the Warriors at close range while using the spotter rule to still use the cannon.

The berserker and warrior upgrades are a great option. They are very cheap and make the formation hard as hell to break.

What I can't seem to find is a good option for supporting squat infantry in assaults except for the WE. I mean, the Squats are all about giant death machinery, but the WE are too slow. Any suggestion?

I've asked Auto to leave his impressions here.


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm's Stronghold List, 1.4
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:50 am 
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Autopilot's Salamanders????

:tut non non non... I played with Settra's Ultramarines, not with my beloved Salamanders. Your purification by fire is yet to come, my friend.

Anyway, lets get to the point.

It was a very fun game, especially because Settra used the squats in a more dynamic way (Guild Bikers, for example).

It is important to say that, as I am a rookie player (this was my 4th game, 1st in a long time) I faced it more like a tutorial game.
My personal objectives were far away from the game objectives, I was really concentrated in understanding the game itself (now that I know a little better the armies) and especially the Air Assault and Fire Support mechanics.
So let's speak about the game in this perspective .

My thoughts about Settra's list:

The robots formations were for me the best unit he had.
These machines have the virtue of "seeming" not worth a serious attack (oh they are so few and they seem harmless), they are hard and finally, because I was occupied with other ennemy units they just controlled an important area all the way.

In my opinion, this list was very weak against Air Assault.
When my Thunderhawk deployed an assault formation + devastators, supported by a recently teleported Terminator squad, right in front of his units on overwatch (2 thunderfires, 1 or 2 warriors formations (not sure), the Warlord, and another unit I can't recall) it was a massacre.

Then came the drop-pods and the massacre could have been of epic proportions if I haven't decided to drop them in I'm-still-wondering-what-the-hell-was-I-thinking.

As I said, was just learning and testing. It was a great game, had lots of fun, and Settra had his deserved victory, but I must say that this listing with a more experienced player than I am would certainly be in a lot of trouble facing the Air Assault.

Great game! ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm's Stronghold List, 1.4
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:34 pm 
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I've been mulling over the idea of 'towed' Thunderfires and just can't bring myself to do it. I just can't think of anything that tows anything else in Epic and I don't want the list to have another exception.

What does everyone think of Hunters in the list? They can be an upgrade only to Warrior formations which would limit their deployment but still give the list some air coverage that it is sorely lacking. Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm's Stronghold List, 1.4
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:03 pm 
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I feel that adding Hunters to the list would significantly change the set up. I for one would drop my Thunderfires in favour of Hunters straight away. I would rather stick with what we have and add Hunters into a more expeditionary force variant list.

Towing vehicles for Thunderfires could work. I would rather see them reduced back down to 100pts for a pair and then restricted to 1:1 with the Warrior Formations. The Squat player just has to accept that they have limited AA coverage unless they want to push their Overlords forward.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm's Stronghold List, 1.4
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:55 pm 
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hello !


AA and the lack of it.... Suppose that thas was the reason to make the thunderfire that "cheap". Due to their 0 movement there was the option to spam thunderfires in order to get aa protection.
I was quite unhappy what their poinst cost was increased to 125. Two of them die much too fast. Overlord is no protection (at all).
Therefore I vote for a) make thunderfire cheaper or b) create land train car with thunderfire gun !!! (kind of towed vehicle) c) anything else..infantry (like tyras) with aa rockets and 15 cm range "star-shooter-infantrie-stands"

The land train combo that works is combining bomb and berserkers ( to make it more difficult for the enemy to engage the train). Mortar and dragon battle car...dead option (my point of view).

kind regards stefan


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm's Stronghold List, 1.4
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:59 pm 
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Quote:
The Squat player just has to accept that they have limited AA coverage unless they want to push their Overlords forward.


Which may have to be the end solution (i.e. no solution). But why the point reduction and 1:1 move? The pair is still brutal at killing stuff.

Quote:
b) create land train car with thunderfire gun !!! (kind of towed vehicle)


Provocative... I just don't know which part of the train would even qualify as a contender for having an AA shot. Besides, Trains were designed by the Squats to clear orks out of tunnels and mines. AA seems rather at odds with that mission.

Leviathan armed with an AA shot? I dunno.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm's Stronghold List, 1.4
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:34 pm 
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hello !

I did not know about the train`s fluff background.
Fighting orcs in a tunnel using rad bomb or a gun mw with range of 120 and mortars....good luck..now i know why the dwarfs are that low in numbers ;D
To keep serious... wagon that includes one installed "small" thunderfire . 1 LP, 1 Shield, FF 4 cc4, battlecanon and the 60 cm aa weapon for 75 Points (christmas is coming soon :D )this is the thing i am thinking about.


thunderfires killing stuff...in case you face av they are great. Shooting an orc mob, tyranids (infantrie in high number) you really do some serious damage :P . Nevertheless I like them.

Upgrading the war engines with AA sounds (likte titans) great but will result in an increase of points, but i like this idea as well.

regards Stefan


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm's Stronghold List, 1.4
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:53 pm 
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LOL - indoor rad bomb ping pong. A well placed point.

Okay, maybe a poll is in order. You have some good ideas.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm's Stronghold List, 1.4
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:15 pm 
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Moscovian wrote:
Quote:
The Squat player just has to accept that they have limited AA coverage unless they want to push their Overlords forward.


Which may have to be the end solution (i.e. no solution). But why the point reduction and 1:1 move? The pair is still brutal at killing stuff.

Thought of the 1:1 ratio as a block on Thunderfires being spammed & linking them to the Warriors also gives a reason for the Warriors to be taken.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm's Stronghold List, 1.4
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:33 pm 
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True, but then we get the problem of Warriors being the BTS.


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm's Stronghold List, 1.4
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:51 pm 
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Was looking at the Thunderfires as a separate formation. Thus allowing the War Engines to keep that role if desired.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm's Stronghold List, 1.4
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:15 pm 
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Ah, that's splendid then! I totally misunderstood, apologies.


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 Post subject: Re: Squats: Thurgrimm's Stronghold List, 1.4
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:41 pm 
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I'm not especially familiar with the Squat list (just started to read it now that I'm painting up my squats).

But I have some questions regarding design ideas.
- Why not have the Leviathan as upgrades for the warrior formation and Colossus (should have transport 6) as upgrades for the berserker formation. This would free up space in WE part of the army list. Also make the infantry formations more interesting to play with. There's precedence, the Orks may have gun fortresses and battle fortresses in their mobs. Also in theory this would increase the number of available points for WE's pushing the heavy and slow theme.

- Same with Thunderfire and Colossus, add them as upgrades available to Thudd guns, Mole Mortars and Tarantula formations. Once again there is precedence in the Orks list for adding a powerful weapon to support groups in the form of the oddboyz

- Why does the Thunderfire have 0cm Speed and the Goliath 5cm, Don't thinK it would be unbalanced for thunderfire to have 5cm too.

- I've always envisioned the landtrain as the speedy WE of the Squats (train evokes the notion of speed i guess). I would like to see it have a speed of 20-25cm. Making it a interesting choice and also making the possability of a fast attack list (tunnelers, Iron eagles and Bikes).

- I feel lika the bikes and trikes get shafted compared to the other lists. Orks get 15cm weapons. Marines get better stats, TSKNF and cheaper (and they gett skimmer on their "trike" making the bad CC a moot point), chaos marines better stats and more stands). And lastly all the others are faster. All in all I'd say they would need a bump. I Would like the shootiness to increase give them a 15cm shooting weapon like the orks.


All these things might very well have been tried and rejected. But I feel they would result in a more interesting list.


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