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Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32

 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:50 am 
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3500 pts batrep against Eldar.

This was a weird battle. Playing a list for the first time is slow going but add in totally weird dice rolls and a lot of n00b mistakes and you get mayhem. We mauled each other to bits. turn 3 win for eldar 2 - 1

My opponents army:

Warlock titan 850
3 windrider host with 2 vypers @ 3*200= 600
warhost + 3 supportweapons + 3 wraithguard = 350
warhost + 3 supportweapons = 200
voidspinner = 250
vampire raider = 200
aspect warriors +autarch + exarch = 400
2 falcon hosts incl 1 firestorm @ 2*250 = 500
gateway = 50
rangers = 100
avatar = free


My army:

pithead
warrior b'hood + thunderers in rhinos 450
warrior b'hood + berserkers in rhinos 325
berserker b'hood + xtra berserkers, grand warlord, termites 425

robots 225
thudd gun 225
thunderfire 100
bikerguild 225
iron eagles 275
overlord 250
2x colossus 900 (1 colossus -> BTS by adding living ancestor)

I ran the list with robots as AV and iron eagles as designators.

:nopics (they will follow! I promise!)

Setup:
The table was a bit sparse for a cityfight table. I won the initiative Objectives were placed rather poorly by me, but overal I was happy with where my opponent place his. The two he put on my half were near to each other with a large ruin in between. I deployed the robots, thunderfires and the thudd guns as garrisons.

<insert setup drawing here>

I won initiative on the first turn and then proceeded to fail my activation on my thuddguns :nooo
this gave Spawn a lot of room to move since I failed the second activation as well with my brotherhood with thunderers (I moved em but forgot to unload the troops) My grand warlord was not on the board yet cause he was tunnelling. :{[] I won't do that again...
one warhost took the ruins on the right side and the 2nd warhost came out of the gate. one windrider host surged forward only to lose a bike to dangerous terrain and then another to snapfire by the thunderfires which Spawn wanted to destroy or suppress. I should have reatined when I had the chance cause next thing I knew I had a vampire and aspects assaulting my iron eagles which wiped them out.
things were looking grim and I foolishly charged the bikes from the minehead into the warhost on the right side obliterating my own unit. ( Man I need to play this game more and drink less beer while playing it)

<insert turn two pic>

Spawn wins initiative but in a bizarre twist of fate echoing my bad luck on turn one he fails his activation roll, even with a reroll. Activating the thudd guns they break the windriders on the right side. Then one of the colossi goes on to fire everything at the aspects, breaking them and the windrider host next to them as well due barragetemplate and blastmarker overkill.
The robots are obliterated by one of the falcon units (they had suffered casualties from the titan last turn)
The remaining windrider host proceeded to obliterate itself on the remaining thunderfire (thunderfire saved hits) due to supporting fire from a colossus and a brotherhood. (I'm not the only one that was rusty)

The end fase had good rally rolls on both sides, leaving me with very few blast markers. Sadly I was very lacking in activations...

Turn 3
Due to a stupid mistake in coords the berserkers only surface now :{[]. the scouts force them to divert to either side of the bridge past the webway portal. this is a bad spot to surface in. I summary Spawn makes no more mistakes and does all he can to break them which works even after I do a mashall action on them. I manage to destroy his titan with combined fire from the remaining thunderers and a colossus. and secure or contest the remining objectives on my half. I just didn't have enough left to get on his half. It was a mutual massacre...

--------------------------

post battle thoughts:

thunderfires in units of two are a waste of points. far too easy to break. three like a unit of hydras is better. the battlecannons actually had some effect, and are maybe a bit overpowered, then again, they are squats and it sort of compensates for the lack of movement. being able to add a thunderfire to the thuddguns would have been nice, since the thudd guns didn't go anywhere.

thudd guns
probably too expensive. Still I'd take them over mole mortars any day. Don't see myself fielding those for 175

overlord we both liked the wysiwyg stats and the similarity to the old SM stats, but agreed 6 battlecannons and 4 autocannons is probably too much for 250 pts. Now the unit outguns the colossus if you disregard the one shot missiles. nerfing it a bit so it fits 200 pts would be nice since it will fill a different slo than the colossus/leviathan/cyclops. If it was similar to an imperial SHT 500 for 3 would be nice too. not sure it needs a designator.

robots
Spawn had a nice idea on these. By removing the +1 EA and the secondary weapon they could be fielded in larger units of 10-12 for about 250 pts. this would be a nice core choice which could work well with the autonom rule and would be pretty characterful. I'll try it next game since I have tons of robots anyway

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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:10 pm 
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Thanks for the batrep :)

what are ur thoughts about the tunnelling rules?

yes its critical to have ur grand warlord on the table for that supreme commander reroll...generally have mine in a warrior brotherhood unit in rhinos...

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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:40 am 
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I had fun with the tunnelers but wouldn't use them again as the are.

For tunnelers I'd use them same as drop pods.
Put the carriage(s) on table in the turn they arrive like a spaceship. No scatter. Keep the tunnelers on table when they surface to give troops standing against them a cover save, but otherwise they do nothing once they surface. That's how I would use them and assign points values te correspond with that.

This would keep it simple and the points value low hopefully, and still give the models themselves a use albeit a small one. a pit head is 50 pts and is more flexible, so I can't imagine wanting to spend more than 50 pts on equiping a unit with tunnelers.

I played another game today, I was teaching a friend the game. He played imperials. Didn't really go very well for the squats. The colossi didn't really do a lot of damage among other things..

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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 12:05 pm 
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3000pt battle vs Space Marines

Berserkers + 2 Berserkers & Rhinos
Berserkers + 2 Berserkers & Rhinos
Warriors + Warlord & Rhinos
Thunderfires (2)
Thunderfires (2)
Robots
Guild Bikers (inc 3 Trikes)
Guild Bikers (inc 3 Trikes) & Grand Warlord
Iron Hawks
Colossus + Living Ancestor (BTS)
Cyclops
(+ Pit Head which Bikers & GWarlord started in)

Vs

Tactical + Hunter & SC
Tacticals (+ Librarian) in a
Thunderhawk
Terminators (+ Chaplin) in a
Thunderhawk
Predators (50/50 split)+ Hunter
Scouts + Rhinos
Landspeeders (inc 1 with Assault Cannon & Hvy Bolter)
Warhound
Warhound
Thunderbolts

Game went to fifth turn with the SM winning 2-0 (Blitz & TnH).

The game was very tight with both sides having terrible rolls to both hit and save. Plus once the Squats lost their Grand Warlord they started to roll a lot of 1’s for activations which really stunted their chances of doing much. However, if the dice had been with me I think that the Squats would have been victorious.

List of woes that ultimately lead to the Squat down fall.
    Garrisoning a formation of Thunderfires up the table to increase the AA range – Warhound doubled killing one and breaking the formation.
    Bikers engaging Warhound and although they did two points of damage lost roll off and broke – SC subsequently was killed by BM for being shot at and losing another bike.
    Cyclops being air assaulted by Terminators before being activated in turn one and dying after two rounds of combat for just the loss of a Terminator. Broken Thunderfire destroyed by support BM.
    Colossus being broke in second turn in an assault against Land Speeders and never rallying.
    75cm Thunderhawk sniping second formation of Thundefires killing one and breaking the other which failed to rally with Tacticals nearby and died due to their proximity.
    Sneaky Thunderhawk landing and shooting up my Berserkers on the SM Blitz which could have won me the game in turn 4, followed by the same formation losing a risky engagement in turn 5 to a lone Predator.

All in all it was a tight and enjoyable game which could have swung either way with some better dice rolling.
Robots were played as LV, but they lost one to shooting which was a hit of a 6 on a needed 6, so 50/50 chance of failing follow up roll (which we didn’t take) and the rest were destroyed in an engagement.


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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 12:13 pm 
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so u didnt have any hassle with ur supreme commander starting off board and not having access to the reroll until he popped up out of the pithead?

did u get much value out of the Cyclops?

with the air assaults u faced, suggested counter measures?

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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 12:53 pm 
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No I only started failing my activations once the SC was killed.

Nothing from the Cyclops as if was destroyed before it activated on turn 1. I'll admit that I was caught out by this as I could have activated it to fire on the first Warhound.

Counter measures, I had just opened up the flank by moving a formation of Berserkers so possibly play to out wait the SM activations or keep the Thunderfires further back.


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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 1:47 pm 
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Thunderfire braces are really vulnerable and not worth the points in my opinion. I always try and take 2 overlords for AA cover but that leaves out fielding a colussus and cyclops at the same time.

My GW goes in an upgraded warrior brotherhood almost every time. I feel he's too exposed with the bikes and even with berzerkers, also because I tend to use my bikes for suicide assaults :)


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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 2:22 pm 
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i also put my GW in an Warrior formation...found it much more resilient.

i have found a screen of Iron Eagles is effective for slowing down any air assaults/teleporters...being skimmers it turns engagements into FF so all those advantages of termies in particular are lost...generally i hold back until the air assaults and teleporters have committed then deal with them and go about the rest of the battle plan...

@ Tiny-Tim - sorry i missed ur note about the Cyclops getting terminated.

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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:27 pm 
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I've just been reading through the list. It looks like a lot of fun :)

Special rules
I've drafted a few suggested changes to clarify some rules and bring the language closer to the NetEA Tournament Pack.

Original:
Quote:
Special Rule - x.0.1 Stubborn
Squats are known for being extremely stubborn folk, and their fighting style is reflective of this intractable nature. To represent this, Squats may only take a maximum single withdrawal move of 15cm when breaking. However, Squats only take hack down kills within 5cm instead of the typical 15cm. In addition, Squats rally on a +1 to their initiative roll.


I suggest this be rephrased to:
Quote:
Special Rule - x.0.1 Stubborn
Squats are known for being extremely stubborn folk, intractable and reluctant to give ground to the enemy.

To represent this, squat formations making a withdrawal make only one move. Squat units are only destroyed if they end this withdrawal move within 5cm of the enemy, rather than the usual 15cm.

In addition, Squat formations receive a +1 modifier to any Rally rolls they make.


Also, I couldn't seem to find any note of what constitutes (rules-wise) a 'squat'. I'm assuming it's anything in the list, including robots and tarantulas. Is this correct? It seems a shame not to apply the very characterful rule only to the squats themselves, much like orks specifically exclude Gretchin and Big Gunz units from the 5.5.1 Mob Rule.

Owing to the way the list works, it would be simple to add a note to the Stubborn rule saying that Autonom units do not count as squats (things like Rhinos, Thunderfires etc. would benefit, as they're driven or crewed by squats).

This would have the happy knock-on effect that units such as robots could more easily be used in other lists (like Adeptus Mechanicus) without altering their core rules. Alternatively, stubborn could be added to the appropriate unit types in the army list.

+++
Original:
Quote:
Special Rule - x.0.2 Mine Portal
Hundreds of worlds, thousands of moons, and countless asteroids have been mined by the Squats. While the vast majority of those are located in the Galactic Core, Squats have dug everything from diagonal mine shafts to vast subterranean metropolises into planet crusts wherever the Imperium has trod. To represent this, Squat armies may have up to three formations per Mine Portal enter play by taking an action that allows them to move, then measuring its first move from the Mine Portal on the tabletop. No more than one formation may travel through a single Mine Portal per turn, but the formation does not have to be assigned to any particular Mine Portal. It is assumed that large networks of tunnels connect the Mine Portals together.


I'm assuming 'Mine Portal' should read 'Pithead' or vice versa. I've also trimmed down the colour text to more closely match the length of colour text in similar main rules, and rephrased the writing to follow the similar Eldar Webway Portal rule for ease and familiarity:
Quote:
Special Rule - x.0.2 Pithead
While the vast majority are located in the Galactic Core, squat mines are found on planets and asteroids across the galaxy.

Each Pithead included in the army allows the squat player to pick up to three other formations, and keep them back in the subterranean workings of the mine. Any formations kept in the mine may enter play via the Pithead, by taking an action that allows them to make a move, and then measuring their first move from the position that a Pithead occupies on the tabletop.

Note that the formation may arrive through any Pithead, not just the one that was ‘used’ to allow the formation to be kept off-board. No more than one formation may travel through each Pithead each turn.

In the Epic Tournament Game Rules, formations in reserve with multiple deployment options must have a designated deployment method during setup (e.g. Pithead or tunneller).


+++
Original:
Quote:
Special Rule – x.0.4 Spotter
Certain Squat vehicles are equipped with precision instrumentation to coordinate long range attacks on the enemy by triangulating their position and reporting that data to specialized war engines. A weapon with the spotter ability triangulates on an enemy formation within range of the designator and with a line of fire (see EA 1.9.2) to the formation. Enemy formations may not be designated by units carrying out a march action or by broken units. All Squat War Engines may advance, double, or marshal and still fire their indirect weapons upon an enemy formation. Normal modifiers for these actions still apply as well as range considerations.


The phrasing of the second paragraph mixes colour text with rules. Can I suggest the following?

Quote:
Special Rule – x.0.4 Spotter
Certain Squat vehicles are equipped with precision instrumentation to coordinate long range attacks on the enemy by triangulating their position and reporting that data to specialized war engines.

Squat War Engines that perform advance, double, or marshal actions may fire their indirect weapons upon an enemy formation that is within range of a weapon with the spotter ability that has a line of fire (see EA 1.9.2) to the formation. Normal modifiers for these actions still apply as well as range considerations.

The spotter ability may not be used by units carrying out a march action or by broken units.


Alternatively, here's a version that uses the existing Tau Markerlight rule as a cue for phrasing.

Quote:
Special Rule – x.0.4 Spotter
All enemy formations with at least one unit within range and Line of Fire (see EA 1.9.2) of at least one Squat unit with the spotter ability is considered to be spotted.

Squat War Engines that perform advance, double, or marshal actions may fire their indirect weapons upon an enemy formation that is within range of a weapon with the spotter ability and that has a Line of Fire to the formation. Normal modifiers for these actions still apply, as well as range considerations.

A War Engine may not benefit from the spotter ability if the formation with the spotter weapon has used the March order during the turn or if it is broken.


+++
Original:
Quote:
Special Rule – x.0.5 Autonom
The Squats employ multiple robotic units that serve a number of purposes. This technology dates back to pre-Imperium days when the number of Squats was small compared to the invading Orks present in the Galactic Core, and continued in practice after the expansion of the Homeworlds.
All formations composed entirely of autonom units will not collect blast markers for casualties to the formation or for crossfire bonuses, but will collect blast markers for coming under fire and disrupt attacks. A formation composed entirely of autonom units will not automatically take damage inflicted when broken; a unit that is allocated a hit in this way may attempt to save it normally. All non-air unit autonom are unable to march. All air unit autonoms are considered bombers for the purposes of maneuvering and do not receive bonuses for intercepting or combat-air-patrols.


I've tidied the phrasing of this up a bit, and suggest the following:

Quote:
Special Rule – x.0.5 Autonom
The Squats of the Core Worlds maintained their high technology level throughout the dark days of the Age of Strife, and even now commonly employ entirely robotic units in order to compensate for their comparatively small numbers when compared with their traditional enemies, the orks.

A formation composed entirely of units with the autonom rule never receives blast markers for units destroyed, but otherwise receives blast markers as normal – such as for coming under fire or from weapons with the disrupt ability.

Units with the autonom rule in a broken formation are allowed to attempt their saving throw against any additional hits.

Formations that include units with the autonom rule are unable to choose March actions.


I have removed the reference to aircraft with autonom, as there don't appear to be any! I've also trimmed out the crossfire note, as this is a casualty-caused blast marker; and could potentially cause confusion. Similarly, the phrasing for the broken formations clause implied damage was caused simply by becoming broken; so I've rephrased this.

+++
Weaponry
There's quite a bit of potential confusion or delay in looking up weapons that have identical stats but different names (e.g. missile launcher/autocannon; trench pistols/bolt pistols). Can I suggest that you pick one for the theme and stick to it? Given the lack of official models and the ready availability of alternatives that have heavy machine guns over rocket launchers, I think this would help for rules clarity.

Replace Missile Launcher with Autocannon in Warrior (to match Warlord and Robot, and for consistency).
Replace Trench Pistols with Bolt Pistols in Berserker (to match Guild Bike and to remove the less familiar weapon).
Replace Bolters with Stormbolter on Hellbore (to match Mole and Rhino).
Purely for flavour, I'd suggest changing Lasgun to Autogun in warrior.

+++
Notes on Warrior unit: 'Every other stand carries a [Missile Launcher] weapon'. Is this intentional? I'd suggest you adopt the Imperial Guard approach for familiarity, and change this to 'One unit in every two has an [Autocannon]'; and add the following clarifying note, adopted from the Imperial Guard rules:
Quote:
Q:How do you determine the number of Autocannon shots a Squat Warrior Brotherhood formation has if units in it are suppressed?
A:Work out Suppression for Squat Warrior infantry before working out the number of Autocannon shots. Any Squat Warrior within 45cm of the enemy is assumed to be in range and may therefore be suppressed as long as they have a Line of Fire. Count the number of remaining Squat Warrior units and halve this total, rounding up, to find the number of Autocannon shots you may take.
Another way to think about this is that each Squat Warrior unit has ½ of an attack. Just as a BM suppresses all the shots of a single unit, it suppresses the ½ shot of the single Squat Warrior unit.


+++
Notes on Mole Mortar: This seems a bit easy to miss! Perhaps you should just note 'X' in the Firepower, and change the note to:
Quote:
To determine the BP, count up the number of Mole Mortars in the formation that are eligible to fire upon the target unit and halve this total, rounding up.


+++
Hope these notes are useful – keep up the great work :)

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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:49 pm 
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Interesting phrasing. I'm not fussed with making the majority of these proposed changes here, but changing Stubborn will be a big change.


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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:06 pm 
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'Not fussed' as in 'please don't change things' or 'don't care if they are changed'?

They're simply wording changes to make them consistent with the main rules and other lists. If there's a change in intention it's my misunderstanding of the rule, which – at least to me – indicates it needs clarification anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:25 pm 
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Not really. Take stubborn, for instance. It was meant to hold the withdrawal move to a maximum of 15cm, not to a single move, which is why I worded it that way. I suppose I could make the special rules more detailed, but instead I'd rather include an FAQ list as so far the rules haven't been misinterpreted much. That way it keeps the rules streamlined and simple, which is what I was shooting for.

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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:09 pm 
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Quote:
Take stubborn, for instance. It was meant to hold the withdrawal move to a maximum of 15cm, not to a single
move, which is why I worded it that way.


The current wording is:
Quote:
To represent this, Squats may only take a maximum single withdrawal move of 15cm when breaking.

...which could be taken to mean that 'each move the squats may take is limited to 15cm' – as rule 1.13.3 is worded 'A formation making a withdrawal may make two moves'. If the phrasing is taken to mean 'each single move is restricted to 15cm' (rather redundantly, as the formation only has a move of 15cm anyway).

Don't get me wrong – it's pretty clear what's intended in each case – but loose wording (like 'hack down kills') could potentially be confusing; particularly to non-native English speakers.

To put it another way, the suggested changes aren't more detailed – most of them are shorter than the existing rules – they're just following the style of the rest of the game's wording. :)

No worries if it's causing more problems than it's worth; I simply thought it might be good to make it consistent with existing rules where possible. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:18 pm 
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Keep on commenting, my last reply was probably a bit short, I'm dealing with a couple of poor work positions and I'm juggling.


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