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Squat special rule: Spotter

 Post subject: Re: Squat special rule: Spotter
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:48 pm 
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From an outsider's perspective, this sounds very similar to Tau Markerlight, which seems to be a proven and accepted mechanic. Why not do the same; give certain spotter units "designators" and certain weapons "guided" with +1.

The Spotter has to be in LoS of a unit in the target, and that unit has to be in range (and possibly LoS) of the firer to confer +1 to the 'guided' weapon.


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 Post subject: Re: Squat special rule: Spotter
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 5:43 pm 
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Unit v Formation - I think any mechanic should work by formation, not individual unit targets.

+1 to hit - I have concerns about this when it comes to long range weapons and especially artillery. +1 Sustain and +1 for Spotter is going to tear some stuff up. I'd rather see it stick with the original "IDF on the move" idea than just extra to-hit.

Ginger wrote:
From an outsider's perspective, this sounds very similar to Tau Markerlight, which seems to be a proven and accepted mechanic. Why not do the same; give certain spotter units "designators" and certain weapons "guided" with +1.

This. In fact, I assumed from the early description that the mechanic was meant to be the same, except that instead of +1 to-hit, it gave IDF while moving.

Moscovian wrote:
Neal, when we were originally theoryhammering the list out, our first thought was to do exactly what you suggested, and we had the same concerns about it being more tied to the smaller arty formations than the SHTs. Then of course we run into the fact that the artillery for the Squats already outshine other types of weapons.
Fair enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Squat special rule: Spotter
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 6:25 pm 
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nealhunt wrote:
+1 to hit - I have concerns about this when it comes to long range weapons and especially artillery. +1 Sustain and +1 for Spotter is going to tear some stuff up. I'd rather see it stick with the original "IDF on the move" idea than just extra to-hit.


I thought the same thing, that's why I snuck the bit about no other to-hit mods applying in there.

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 Post subject: Re: Squat special rule: Spotter
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 7:08 pm 
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We can certainly give it a whirl. It would be better than what we have right now. Of course there aren't that many IDF weapons on the Super-Heavies which brings me to two new challenges.
1. If/how we re-arm the existing Super-Heavies. While I don't mind the single shot weapons, it might be better to have them shooting every round.
2. The range of the spotter.

90cm seems way off to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Squat special rule: Spotter
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 8:56 pm 
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Moscovian wrote:
90cm seems way off to me.

I think that depends on several factors.

1) How many spotters are present. Obviously, more present will generate a lot more lines of sight for spotting formations.

2) What other abilites spotters have. A 90cm Skimmer/Spotter popped up on OW will have few impedences from terrain, while a 90cm ground-based spotter with 90cm range will probably be limited by terrain more than range.

3) How many units are able to use the Spotter. Lots of units means each spotter can potentially guide more units in and range/LoS becomes much more important.

The most important thing is how much the ability is a defining characteristic. Should it be almost always available or is it something that they can sometimes use to drop the hammer when everything works just right? Answer that, and then you can figure out the appropriate numbers for range, shooters and spotters.


Personally, I see the squats as more of a "this is the way we fight... all the time" crowd. Finesse and setting up combos like Eldar or (to a lesser extent) Tau seems off. I would think that the point of having spotters as an integral part of the force is so they can move/shoot most of the time as the big guns grind forward.

Of course, a widespread ability likely means widespread point adjustments...


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 Post subject: Re: Squat special rule: Spotter
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 9:56 pm 
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Good points.

To answer some of your questions, the Iron Hawk (upgrade to the 4-strong Iron Eagle formation) is a spotter, as is the Overlord (formations of 1-2 from the WE section). Iron Hawks move 35cm and are skimmers. Overlords are 20cm movers and support craft. It seems unlikely that there would be an army without one or the other, but 1-3 spotters seems average. While it would be possible to field 4 or more, it seems as unlikely as having none.

We currently have 4 Super-Heavies: Leviathan, Collossus, Cylcops, and Land Train.
Leviathan has no IDF weapons.
Collossus has 4 x Plasma Missiles, 60cm, 2BP, Indirect Fire, One-Shot Each.
Cyclops has 6 x Doomstorm Missiles, 90cm, 1BP, Indirect Fire, One-Shot Each.
Land Train has potentially Rad Bomb, 90cm, 4BP , Indirect, One-Shot, Disrupt, Ignore Cover., and/or
Siege Mortar, 45cm, 2 BP, Indirect, Ignore Cover, Slow Firing.

These are WYSIWYG units, so unless we break with that method of arming the WEs that's all we have for the spotters to work with. You can see hopefully why I am thinking of changing the one-shot status on these beasts as we move forward with modifying the spotter rule.

So, whatcha think guys?

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 Post subject: Re: Squat special rule: Spotter
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 11:42 pm 
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Dave wrote:
nealhunt wrote:
+1 to hit - I have concerns about this when it comes to long range weapons and especially artillery. +1 Sustain and +1 for Spotter is going to tear some stuff up. I'd rather see it stick with the original "IDF on the move" idea than just extra to-hit.


I thought the same thing, that's why I snuck the bit about no other to-hit mods applying in there.


Yeah I'm in agreement on this. +1 to hit is to good at least if combined with all IDF weapons. Squats have access to several ignore cover barrage weapons. They would shred any garrison infantry to easy. I think it would likely feel a bit overpowered by your opponents. Without a modifier it's still 3+ for IC weapons or 4+ for the dooms day on a sustain which is very good against the horde armies out there.

My suggestion for the spotter rule would be to leave the rule for the actual spotting part as is and then grant indirect fire to all barrage weapons (so not only the dooms day), but on the four big war engines only (not the artillery formations). Regardless of which activation they take (perhaps not on a hold though). This ties in nicely with what spotter used to do and the old SM/TL rules were the big engines didn't need orders but could always move and always fired in the first fire segment.

If the rule would stay like it is now and be only for the dooms day cannon then I'd go with giving it the +1 to hit bonus. Otherwise it feels a bit meh, and don't really do much.

my 2 ören

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 Post subject: Re: Squat special rule: Spotter
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 11:55 pm 
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I'd say follow KISS and keep the rule for spotting as in the old SM era. If the Iron Hawk has LOS to the target, the Colossus can use indirect fire.


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 Post subject: Re: Squat special rule: Spotter
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 3:44 pm 
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Lots of good ideas bouncing around. I like the WE-only idea.
==============

Doomsday Cannon - Give them all Indirect. The only concern I have is the idea that you might end up with a good blitz guard, but that's not exactly out of character as long as it can be balanced. Or if that won't work, maybe a conditional Spotter-only IDF ability.

Spotter - A Squat Leviathan chassis or Land Train can fire IDF at a formation in range/LoS of a unit with Spotter as long as it takes no more than a single move (Advance, Marshall/Fire, Hold/Fire). Targeting would be the same as with any barrage weapon - at least one target unit with range/LoS to all firing and spotting units must be under the barrage, then place template as normal barrage rules.

==============

That should function in a fairly straightforward manner. Range on the spotter could be fairly long, because only a couple units will be using it in any given army. The cost of the ability could be factored mostly into those units rather than the Spotter units.

Of course, it will be critically important to resolve the disparate weapon abilities on the different Squat WE BP weapons. Otherwise, the entire Spotter concept is a moot point.


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 Post subject: Re: Squat special rule: Spotter
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:10 pm 
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Bump.
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Doomsday Cannon - Give them all Indirect. The only concern I have is the idea that you might end up with a good blitz guard, but that's not exactly out of character as long as it can be balanced. Or if that won't work, maybe a conditional Spotter-only IDF ability.

Spotter - A Squat Leviathan chassis or Land Train can fire IDF at a formation in range/LoS of a unit with Spotter as long as it takes no more than a single move (Advance, Marshall/Fire, Hold/Fire). Targeting would be the same as with any barrage weapon - at least one target unit with range/LoS to all firing and spotting units must be under the barrage, then place template as normal barrage rules.


Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

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