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Official Feedback and Battle Reports for 1.61

 Post subject: Official Feedback and Battle Reports for 1.61
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:37 am 
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Please post in this thread for all Squat battle reports


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 Post subject: Re: Official Feedback and Battle Reports for 1.61
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:11 am 
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First 1.61 Squat battle report: Squats vs Titans

http://d6addiction.blogspot.com.au/2017/03/friday-night-double-header-god-machines.html

Beefcake4000 wrote:

First impression of Squats watching Kenny last night was that they are pretty soft now in the usual form. Kenny just didn't have the hitting power to take down titans. He managed to kill a warhound and that was with a combined engagement, the shooting was pretty minimal and the activation count had dropped heavily too

My thinking now is that you'd probably run 1-2 overlords as supports for engagements maybe and focus more on war engines and gyrocopters instead
The reduced range on the overlords was huge, combined support craft and with the reduced activations it meant they needed to expose themelves to too much risk for little reward and the just got chewed up.

It was an awesome titan army and Mick pulled off some magical moves that caught Kenny with his pants down
Really interesting watching titans be so damn agressive rather than sitting back and sniping all game


Beefcake4000 wrote:
I suspect that gyrocopters become more essential in this version of the list but they have the same old issues, shortish range without the benefits that say falcons have for the same points and no leader option so shedding blasties is a problem with the overlords down I feel you need to look at the war engines again to fill that gap. Macro templates are great against infantry but don't do much against armour and nothing useful against a big WE and the cyclops as you know is paper/scissor/rock. Maybe tone down the cyclops to D3+1 so it can be a cheaper option? Like a super shadowsword rather than a reaver class war engine

Thudd guns might be worth looking at again though, long range and indirect gives some interesting options
Though that doesn't solve the AV issues



Mic Fair wrote:


There isn't many armies that can go toe to toe with the titans fire power and armour. I think last nights game was a good test for the list. I found the squats had excellent AA coverage but I agree more testing on the overlords is required. I too would like to see more of the war engines on the table to see what they can do.


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 Post subject: Re: Official Feedback and Battle Reports for 1.61
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:14 am 
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Had my first game with the 1.6 list this week vs Paradox's Speed Freaks.
Batrep is here - viewtopic.php?f=84&t=32254
Squats got smoked - some bad tactical errors and failing 6 out of 13 activation attempts.

I dont think there are many conclusions we can really draw from the game, but we did have some comments on the list.
We should probably add March restriction to spotter to bring it in line with other rules like Markerlight.
Suggest have CC on Landtrain capped at 4+. Adding more Berserker Cars should let you roll more dice (which they do) but I don't see how we can justify 2+ CC.
As others have commented, Berserkers seem overpriced - we could either drop to 175, or add 2 more stands to bring it to parity with other core options.
Thunderers and warriors are solid choice, but BMs quickly reduce the effectiveness of thunderfires. In the past a thunderfire formation in the back could be screened by Warriors. Now with them integrated, as soon as the Warriors pick up even 1BM, the thunderfire range reduces to less than 45cm. Maybe allowing Warriors to take 0-2 thunderfires would help, which you had in one of the early playtest versions.
Overlords die very easily. They can't hide, they are not fearless and they are only DC3, so going to be outnumbered (and likely double outnumbered). Hopefully one day mine will stay alive long enough to try out the new short range capability..
Despite designing my list around giving Spotter a good test, I only got to use it once. I don't think it is as powerful as it appears on paper, which is a good thing - on paper it seems pretty strong (or maybe that is just my crappy dice).
I think overall the changes in the list are in the right direction - feels like a solid list with interesting options.


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 Post subject: Re: Official Feedback and Battle Reports for 1.61
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:14 pm 
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My feedback on the match with Taiaha:
Squat +1 rally role really came into play in this game and felt right (pretty much rallied everything which feels right for stubborn squats).
Too many failed activations on the squats part lead to an inability to test anything well.

Thoughts on the list and the proposed dynamics:
I was surprised that Hearthgard have Inspiring. I feel it should be removed (they don’t have commissars or chaplains and it makes the units feel too much like Imperial Guard).

The AA available in this list is now extremely good. Now all formations that might want it get AA for 25pts as an add on (all WE, which in most lists will be 3+ formations). This should be removed. If not, this list structure will severely neuter most air assault lists and really overcompensates the squats “lack” of air power. I would suggest adding AA to the landtrain somehow via a car to increase interests in this iconic squat unit.

Also the Thunderfire AA currently is VERY good as with one action it can now double move to the centerline and control 2/3 of the board with AA (with rhinos). My suggestion is to make it available to units that don’t have transports so it has less maneuverability and forces more of a castling approach or plodding advance).

Land train berserker cars felt too good. I don’t think that they should boost CC.

Spotter rule really isn’t needed. Impacts the WE and you will find that the WEs for the most part will be advancing and therefore can find a target for the big guns.


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 Post subject: Re: Official Feedback and Battle Reports for 1.61
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:54 am 
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Paradox wrote:
My feedback on the match with Taiaha:



Thankyou for your feedback on the match. We do appreciate all battle reports here.

Just one question before I take your feedback into account, you listed five nerfs to the army lists that according to your battle report was torn apart pretty quickly by the orks.

Considering that Squats 1.6 haven't won a game yet, what boosts would you suggest to the army?


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 Post subject: Re: Official Feedback and Battle Reports for 1.61
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:18 pm 
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taiaha wrote:
Had my first game with the 1.6 list this week vs Paradox's Speed Freaks.
Batrep is here - viewtopic.php?f=84&t=32254
Squats got smoked - some bad tactical errors and failing 6 out of 13 activation attempts.

I dont think there are many conclusions we can really draw from the game, but we did have some comments on the list.
We should probably add March restriction to spotter to bring it in line with other rules like Markerlight.


You're probably right

Quote:
Suggest have CC on Landtrain capped at 4+. Adding more Berserker Cars should let you roll more dice (which they do) but I don't see how we can justify 2+ CC.


A few more people have mentioned this. Are the land trains with their 15cm move really tearing things up in CC? Or is it just an impression from reading the list?

Quote:
As others have commented, Berserkers seem overpriced - we could either drop to 175, or add 2 more stands to bring it to parity with other core options.

I'd like to keep them slightly expensive to avoid spam, but have the extras slightly cheaper.

Quote:
Thunderers and warriors are solid choice, but BMs quickly reduce the effectiveness of thunderfires. In the past a thunderfire formation in the back could be screened by Warriors. Now with them integrated, as soon as the Warriors pick up even 1BM, the thunderfire range reduces to less than 45cm. Maybe allowing Warriors to take 0-2 thunderfires would help, which you had in one of the early playtest versions.


Ah this is something I am quite happy to report is 'as intended'. When Thunderfires were solo, a single BM would shut them down completely. Now they just get reduced to 45cm. If you view the Hunters in the SM list you will notice that they have very similar stat lines and effects - a single suppression on a SM unit with a hunter in it will reduce the AA down to 45cm

Quote:
Overlords die very easily. They can't hide, they are not fearless and they are only DC3, so going to be outnumbered (and likely double outnumbered). Hopefully one day mine will stay alive long enough to try out the new short range capability..
Despite designing my list around giving Spotter a good test, I only got to use it once. I don't think it is as powerful as it appears on paper, which is a good thing - on paper it seems pretty strong (or maybe that is just my crappy dice).
I think overall the changes in the list are in the right direction - feels like a solid list with interesting options.



Yeah, I have thought that Overlords might need fearless to behave like balloons should. Will need to test it first


Thankyou for your feedback


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 Post subject: Re: Official Feedback and Battle Reports for 1.61
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:08 pm 
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Elsaurio wrote:
Quote:
Suggest have CC on Landtrain capped at 4+. Adding more Berserker Cars should let you roll more dice (which they do) but I don't see how we can justify 2+ CC.

A few more people have mentioned this. Are the land trains with their 15cm move really tearing things up in CC? Or is it just an impression from reading the list?

My opponents avoid getting into CC with the land-train every time I take it (even with their CC troops). And it's so slow that I haven't been able to get it into CC with anyone else.. haha. So I guess from that point of view, it's theory only... :D

Quote:
Quote:
As others have commented, Berserkers seem overpriced - we could either drop to 175, or add 2 more stands to bring it to parity with other core options.

I'd like to keep them slightly expensive to avoid spam, but have the extras slightly cheaper.

Is spam still a problem with the list? I know originally it was, with super cheap thunderfires and massed Overlords shooting battle-cannons everywhere late in the turn, but not sure that is still the case. Most other lists have useful cheap activations (Scouts, Rangers, Sentinels etc), which the Squats seem to lack now.
I dont mind much either way, but i'll probably be dropping Berserkers in favor of Warriors or Thunderers with the current list.

Quote:
Quote:
Overlords die very easily. They can't hide, they are not fearless and they are only DC3, so going to be outnumbered (and likely double outnumbered). Hopefully one day mine will stay alive long enough to try out the new short range capability..

Yeah, I have thought that Overlords might need fearless to behave like balloons should. Will need to test it first

I agree that adding Fearless to them would have to be tested a lot - that is a pretty powerful buff to a good unit. My comment was more for people who think Overlords still look too powerful on paper. It's likely that I just need to work out how to protect them properly.


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 Post subject: Re: Official Feedback and Battle Reports for 1.61
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:16 pm 
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Sounds to me like the overlords are functioning exactly as intended - ie you have to now get them closer to the enemy to use all their shooting and firefight and that then risks them being destroyed in assaults. Totally agree people just need time to learn how to play them in this form. My yet to be tested theory is they'll work better as counter assault units (either coming in with loads of shooting or a decent firefight against prepped enemies) than line leaders. Fearless would change them utterly as it not only removes their biggest weakness it opens up the tactic of marching them into trouble, getting them broken, doubling forward again, using your 1+ rally to have essentially moved 100cm in a turn to get into fantastic blitz threat positions, lining up against squishy backfield enemy units etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Official Feedback and Battle Reports for 1.61
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:54 am 
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StevekCole wrote:
Sounds to me like the overlords are functioning exactly as intended - ie you have to now get them closer to the enemy to use all their shooting and firefight and that then risks them being destroyed in assaults. Totally agree people just need time to learn how to play them in this form. My yet to be tested theory is they'll work better as counter assault units (either coming in with loads of shooting or a decent firefight against prepped enemies) than line leaders. Fearless would change them utterly as it not only removes their biggest weakness it opens up the tactic of marching them into trouble, getting them broken, doubling forward again, using your 1+ rally to have essentially moved 100cm in a turn to get into fantastic blitz threat positions, lining up against squishy backfield enemy units etc.


I think I agree with you here SteveK. I haven't seen anyone yet take a list with the combo infantry groups, which I think is the new strength. I'm going to get a game this sunday trying them out so we might have a new bat rep soon.


As for Overlords, your point is also exactly what I had feared. I want overlords to 'behave' differently but can't seem to find a special rule that suits them.

I find it unfluffy that the best way to 'pop' them is to beat them through combat res. I always imagined them as the unit least likely to be bothered if they lost combat or were broken - they would just pull up and away.

Fearless is too powerful. Automaton doesn't cover combat.

At the worst, I am thinking about Fearless with a special caveat that if the overlord breaks, it cannot move (representing the fact that it lifts right up) but it is clunky.

Are there any other Fearless skimmers in the game?


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 Post subject: Re: Official Feedback and Battle Reports for 1.61
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:36 am 
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Elsaurio wrote:
StevekCole wrote:
I find it unfluffy that the best way to 'pop' them is to beat them through combat res. I always imagined them as the unit least likely to be bothered if they lost combat or were broken - they would just pull up and away.

Fearless is too powerful. Automaton doesn't cover combat.

At the worst, I am thinking about Fearless with a special caveat that if the overlord breaks, it cannot move (representing the fact that it lifts right up) but it is clunky.

Are there any other Fearless skimmers in the game?


Manta and Executioner are fearless support craft. You can use commissars to make a vulture, Valkyrie, vendetta etc fearless

I'm not concerned by the fluff argument - you could easily say that hackdown basically represents an overlord with a punctured gas bag trying to make evasive maneuvers to escape and stalling, crashing etc - If you get into fluff arguments you'll spend your whole life there (ie why does a blimp most likely filled with hydrogen based on the crit have 4+ RA like a fully armoured tank, how do you mount long range guns with recoil on an airship etc etc)

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 Post subject: Re: Official Feedback and Battle Reports for 1.61
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:57 pm 
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StevekCole wrote:

Manta and Executioner are fearless support craft. You can use commissars to make a vulture, Valkyrie, vendetta etc fearless

I'm not concerned by the fluff argument - you could easily say that hackdown basically represents an overlord with a punctured gas bag trying to make evasive maneuvers to escape and stalling, crashing etc - If you get into fluff arguments you'll spend your whole life there (ie why does a blimp most likely filled with hydrogen based on the crit have 4+ RA like a fully armoured tank, how do you mount long range guns with recoil on an airship etc etc)


Is the Manta/Executioner considered a well-rounded unit?

I can answer the fluff argument though! The official overlord fluff is that it's a gigantic 5km long monstrosity. It's not a single airbag holding it up - instead it's ten thousand individual self-sealing balloon. Even a direct hit from a volcano cannon will only pop a few balloons and go right out the other side without affecting the Overlord. In 2nd edition it actually had a 4+ unmodifiable save due to that fluff.

I just find it hard to imagine that it is easier to bring down with a pistols and smalls arms fire than anything else in the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Official Feedback and Battle Reports for 1.61
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:43 pm 
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Well, this is a direct quote from the fluff on the Overlord from my 2nd edition Ork and Squat Warlords book.

"Unless the attackers hit the gondola the saving throw modifier of the attackers has no effect on the damage caused, bolter fire is as likely to punch a hole through the gas cells if it hits the wrong place as a volcano cannon."

But another quote makes it immune to close combat by another unit unless the unit has some means of being airborne.

"An Overlord can never be pinned in close combat by another unit as it can simply drift over its opponents when it moves. Only skimmers and jet pack equipped troops can try to fight an Overlord in close combat if it is at high level."

Either way, both of those fluff points were also in game effects before. I think with this version of the game it is probably going to be very difficult to come up with something that would mimic that in the old game.

My personal opinion on Overlords was that they should have been limited in how many you can take and keep their previous power level. This way, they are still powerful, but not something you can take en masse to overwhelm your opponents forces later in the game. They should have to work together with our other units to achieve that, not be an inexpensive air attack corps that can do it all on their own.

I think in this version of the game, because of the differences in the way the rules work from 2nd edition, Overlords should have been limited to taking only two of them in a 3k game.

If you did limit them to only two per 3k points, maybe giving them fearless would then be viable?

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 Post subject: Official Feedback and Battle Reports for 1.61
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:28 pm 
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Thanks for clearing the fluff up guys! I guess I'm gonna need a bigger model to represent my 5km long overlord! :-)

On how it plays. I think the current version needs much more testing before further changes are made. I actually like the direction you've taken with it. My suspicion is still that some more tweaking to the infantry/bezerker units would help to create some proper synergies with the new overlord. At the moment because the infantry are basically speed bumps it's hard to do a proper 1-2 punch with the overlord (a la steel legion warhound, mech co double header).

Manta and Executioner are essentially Titan type support craft who have serious shooting but also can carry lots of infantry so pretty different in use to the overlord. Fearless is a no brainier for them as they're in the 6-800 point camp. They're not commonly used in the UK but I know Rug's been having some joy with them - I think he posted about how he uses the Executioner on the Dark Eldar thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Official Feedback and Battle Reports for 1.61
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:01 pm 
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I agree that Overlords certainly aren't there yet, rules wise. It might be more prudent to move the discussion over into a new thread and keep this one for battle reports.


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