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Orders Militant - Adepta Sororitas 2018 2.1 (Developmental)

 Post subject: Re: Orders Militant - Adepta Sororitas 2018 2.0 (Experimenta
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:48 am 
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Thanks for your opinions guys.
I think this list will be balanced and fun to play. The Living Saint, Cathedral and Emperor Chapels will give this enough fun units to play with to make it a little more more colourfull than it's UK counterpart.
What units do you miss in this version? Theres only a Reaver and Knights missing (+Aquila lander for Inq retinue) i think.

The points is IMO where they need to be. The points drops we saw in the last version made the list insanly good and having a list balanced for tournament play is very important to me. Maybe 1-2 units could be changed around a little to make them more interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Orders Militant - Adepta Sororitas 2018 2.0 (Experimenta
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:53 am 
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Mark W wrote:
As one of the players who played SoB at ITB, I found them totally fine.

Seems to have been the general reaction, theres some other feedback here:
viewtopic.php?f=88&t=33522&start=90

I’d say most importantly the list doesn’t rely on tactics that leave you feeling helpless(I.e Necrons) or a few units that feel unstoppable(I.e Krieg Gorgons/Speed freak huge war bands.)

Like a lot of armies, there are about 4-5 really good units, and just taking these does lead to a strong list. I think with a bit of work around boosting some of the other formations, some more fun and variety can be brought into the list whilst keeping the balance.
(That way the play experience isn't just players learning to play with/against this particular build.)

or example:
(1) Emperors cathedrals. Very like a Decimator, but crucially have 30cm(not 45) on the barrage weapon. On such a slow WE this makes a huge difference. As Decimators are generally regarded as a decent but not great option, maybe this could be a tried and tested starting point for making them worth taking? It'd be great to see these back in the list as they are really characterful.

(2) Seraphim do look like Scourges but less good (The extra armour and CC doesn't compensate for the lack of shooting and less FF.) for the same points at the moment. Maybe a 25pt drop might make them more worthwhile?


Hello Mark!

Thank you very much for this! Theese are some very good points. I will look at both of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Orders Militant - Adepta Sororitas 2018 2.0 (Experimenta
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:19 pm 
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one suggestion on the pdf, try to increase the font sizes, very hard to read when printing it out.

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 Post subject: Re: Orders Militant - Adepta Sororitas 2018 2.0 (Experimenta
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:15 pm 
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Will do!

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 Post subject: Re: Orders Militant - Adepta Sororitas 2018 2.0 (Experimenta
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:58 pm 
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Good to see that things are moving again with the SoB!
Interesting to see the direction you're taking it. I thought that the epic Uk list was underpowered, which given the results of into the breach, shows that I just need to get better at playing with my sisters :).
Comments on the direction:
Great to see big churches, and marauders and redemptionists in the same list again. It seems that 4 dominions @ 200 are much better than 6 retributorsaretributors@ 250, i'd rather see a change in the points rather than a change to retributor loadout.


Comments on specific units:
Really glad to see emperor's chapel and cathedral of purification in the list. How are people using these? I don't get much out of mine. Could the chaes have 20cm move like the cathedral? Also what units can they transport? (I'd love to have penitent engines in them) for the emperor's chapel maybe they need an exemption to the normal transport rules so that they can carry a formation between the two of them.
Sisters repentia it seems they have not been brought back to the epic uk version as they have extra attack MW rather than just MW on their normal cc attack. This makes them much better than arcoflagellants for the same price.

Living saint shouldn't she have move 30cm and jump pack?

Comments on formatting of pdf 2.01
Title page says version 1.3
How to use army list has examples that are not consistent with current army list.
Something seems to be missing/not right in the Marauder's weapons section. (Three weapon names but four lines of weapon stats)

Looking forward to getting more games in with the new list!


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 Post subject: Re: Orders Militant - Adepta Sororitas 2018 2.0 (Experimenta
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:58 pm 
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Kapitan Montag wrote:
Good to see that things are moving again with the SoB!
Interesting to see the direction you're taking it. I thought that the epic Uk list was underpowered, which given the results of into the breach, shows that I just need to get better at playing with my sisters :).
Comments on the direction:
Great to see big churches, and marauders and redemptionists in the same list again. It seems that 4 dominions @ 200 are much better than 6 retributorsaretributors@ 250, i'd rather see a change in the points rather than a change to retributor loadout.



Thanks for the kind words. Regarding Retributors vs dominions I'm also leaning towards changing points to balance them a little against each other. Will talk more about that in a bigger post soon.


Kapitan Montag wrote:
Comments on specific units:
Really glad to see emperor's chapel and cathedral of purification in the list. How are people using these? I don't get much out of mine. Could the chaes have 20cm move like the cathedral? Also what units can they transport? (I'd love to have penitent engines in them) for the emperor's chapel maybe they need an exemption to the normal transport rules so that they can carry a formation between the two of them.
Sisters repentia it seems they have not been brought back to the epic uk version as they have extra attack MW rather than just MW on their normal cc attack. This makes them much better than arcoflagellants for the same price.


20cm move on chapels is a good idea. I rather have that than a longer range for it's main gun. Fits better with the ground assault theme also. Let me think about transport options.
Thanks for te Repentia spot, will fix it right away!

Kapitan Montag wrote:
Living saint shouldn't she have move 30cm and jump pack?


Yes indeed she should! Thanks!

Kapitan Montag wrote:
Comments on formatting of pdf 2.01
Title page says version 1.3
How to use army list has examples that are not consistent with current army list.
Something seems to be missing/not right in the Marauder's weapons section. (Three weapon names but four lines of weapon stats)


Cool! Will fix thoose issues. Thanks for noticing them!

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 Post subject: Re: Orders Militant - Adepta Sororitas 2018 2.0 (Experimenta
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:24 pm 
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Also, since I'm crap at anything that has to do with computer programs or formatting, can anyone help me create a file that compatible with Apache OpenOffice 4.1.5?? Every time I open the document and work with it a colum disapperas. Mostly the point colum but now the FF colum went missing for all the units.
If anyone could help me with the formatting i would very very glad and thankfull!

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 Post subject: Re: Orders Militant - Adepta Sororitas 2018 2.0 (Experimenta
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:28 am 
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I've been using Libreoffice Writer for the last few years, and while it's isn't perfect I've not encountered stuff like that. Might be worth switching?

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 Post subject: Re: Orders Militant - Adepta Sororitas 2018 2.0 (Experimenta
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:23 pm 
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I would leave the Repentia sisters as they are with the extra macro weapon attack. To make this list different you need to differeniate from the UK list unit and stat wise. You can always increase the cost of the Repentia for the extra attack.

Chapels are fine increasing their movement is preferred.

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 Post subject: Re: Orders Militant - Adepta Sororitas 2018 2.0 (Experimenta
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:48 pm 
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I will have same stats between the lists for every unit thats in both. The adding of certain units, different costs for formations and maybe another list structure (will ellaborate on that soon) will be enough do give this version it's own flavour i think. Keeping the same stat lines across both lists will make it possible to use feedback from both communities regarding unit balancing.

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 Post subject: Re: Orders Militant - Adepta Sororitas 2018 2.0 (Experimenta
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:25 pm 
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Okay, uploaded a new formatted version (version 2.02) of the list. Had to write it from scratch in a new format to be able to use it. It doesn't look great right now but atleast all colums are in there. Let me know if something is wrong in either document.

The only changes from 2.01 would be Repentia Sisters statline rought in line with EpicUK list and Living Saint getting 30cm movement and Jump Pack Special rule (must have been a mistake giving her 15cm and no Jump Pack).

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 Post subject: Re: Orders Militant - Adepta Sororitas 2018 2.0 (Experimenta
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:41 pm 
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Okay, now for some loner thoughts and ideas about the directin of the list. None of what i write here is set in stone and i would like to hear peoples opinions (constructive ones that is) on my thoughts...

What i see as a potential problem for the list is the Coven spam. What you get for thoose 200p (potentially fearless scout formations with MW attacks in FF). It really hard for other units to compete with Covens because of this.
I have an minor and a major suggestion to fix this issue:

Minor: Point changes.
To make Retributors and Choir more interesting i would like both formations be decreased to 225 points each. I would at the same time like to increase the cost of Covens to 225 points also. This could maybe be enough to make players do more different builds.

Major: List Structure change.
A good way to make Missions more common in armies (which they should be) is to make them Core units by themselves. Every Core unit choice would unlock 2 or three support choices, Ideally i would like to include Exorcisms in the Core tunits to. This would give the players an opportunity to play a AV heavy SoB list also. If Both Exorcisms and Missions where core units i would suggets that every core choice unlocks 2 support slots. If only Missions where core i think every core choice should unlock 3 support slots.

The current support formations would be renamed "Auxiliary Formation" and every core choice ould unlock 2 of their slots.

So just to make it super clear:

Mission (and maybe Exorcisms) would be Core troops.
Each Core Choice would unlock 2 or 3 support choices (depending if exorcisms becomes core choices or not).

Retributors, Covens, Choir, Repentance, Purgeance (and maybe Exorcisms) would be called support formations.

Petinece, Crusaders, Conclave and Inq strike force would be Auxiliary frormations. Every Core choice would unlock 2 Auxiliary slots.

The list structure change would be combined with the minor change of unit costs.

Waddayasay folks?

In thenext post i'll discuss stat line changes and upgrades.

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 Post subject: Re: Orders Militant - Adepta Sororitas 2018 2.0 (Experimenta
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:52 pm 
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Upgrades:

I would like to take away all special formations configurations (like celestians with all their choices) and just give the units the Specialist and Transport upgrades across the board (this is of course only for the specific SoB units). This is way neater ansd simpler and has been pointed out by a few already. It also won't inerfere with list building very much.

Stat line change:

Emperors Chapels.
I'm positive about giving the EC a movement of 20cc, from it's current 15cm. I'd rather do that change than starting to change the weapon stat lines. I think limited range on the shooting is a good drawback for this list and shouldn't be tinkered with to take away.
20cm also lets the chapels perform betetr in a ground assault list like this list is.
This change I'm very sure of.

I'm also toying with the idea to up the Transport capacity of the chapels from 4 to 8 units AND letting them be bought in singles. As they stand right now they're a very expensive unit which wont be used much in battles.
By giving them the option of transporting almost any formation i the list (except the Crusaders who are 10 strong) AND letting them be bought in singles for 200 points they could be seen way more on the table. For 200 points the EC would compete with the current auto include choices of Lightning Strike fighters for 150 points.
Maybe the formation could be 200 points and then +175 for a extra EC? Then it could be used as a BTS too...
This is just a loose idea and not something i'm certain off at all.

Thats about it for now i think. Probably missed something so I'll post soon again...

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 Post subject: Re: Orders Militant - Adepta Sororitas 2018 2.0 (Experimenta
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:00 pm 
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From my PoV on Retributors in the EpicUK list...they don't compete with Dominions, they compete with Missions (200 vs 250 or 250 vs 275). And they do NOT come off well in that trade.

They have FF3+ so are clearly good at firefight so they want to be within 15cm of an enemy for that. However, to get within 15cm of an enemy that means you're usually forced to double to get there. Doubling with Heavy Bolters means you hit on 6s. Except infantry 90%+ of the time are in cover or touching a vehicle for another -1 to hit so those HBs hit on 7s. For firefighting 6 stands on 3+ average 4 hits.

Missions want to get within 15cm to firefight support and also to do their shooting and, due to their greater number of models, are better as the ones initiating the engagement (more likely to score outnumber bonuses, etc). If they double to firefight support they get 8 shots on 5s (-1 for doubling but ignore cover) and are likely to deal more damage than the Retributors (1/3 of 8 is 2 and a bit hits, 7+ on 12 is 1 hit, plus ignore cover deals with things like ruins or bunker cover saves). Then in Firefight (or support) they get 8 on 4s giving an average of...4 hits.

But what about standing still and shooting! The only advantage the Retributors have is range and volume of shots. But it's not THAT much better range and the inferior quality of those shots makes that extra volume less impressive. Retributors sustain at 30cm hitting on 4s with 12 shots while the Mission would advance and shoot on 4s with 8 shots. Except the target being infantry is almost always in cover so actually it's 8 shots on 4s vs 12 shots on 5s...averaging to 4 hits again, except the mission gets to ignore better cover saves like ruins and bunkers.

It's the same issue with the mission doubling to shoot vs the retributors advancing to shoot. Both hit on 5s, except for the target mostly being in cover means the Retributors are on 6s with 12 shots while the missions are on 5s with 8 shots (for 2 and a bit hits vs 2 hits).

For 25pts more I get 3 more models, better options for upgrades and a better gun. Dominions do something different in the list, while Retributors are a direct competitor with Missions and come up short on quality.


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 Post subject: Re: Orders Militant - Adepta Sororitas 2018 2.0 (Experimenta
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:44 pm 
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So you think retributors should have 2xHeavy Flamers and missions 1xHeavy Bolters correct? Should Retributors stay at 250p with this loadout? They become somewhat of suporrting fire experts with this loadout no?

Any comments on my list structure ideas and/or Chapel ideas?

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