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Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)

 Post subject: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:50 pm 
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Hey everyone,

Ive been pretty keen to do the grey knights which is why i applied for the AC position. Ive tried to get dancollins to jump on and give them another push but I'm feeling he may be to busy.

I felt his list was pretty good but wanted to make a few tweaks to it. So credit to him and anyone before him who got the list to where it is.

Heres my version of the list. Hope Im close to whats expected from the list. Feedback most welcome again good or bad.

Thanks Norto

Current Version
Grey Knights V1.1 -2018
Attachment:
GreyKnights V1.1-2018.pdf [797.75 KiB]
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*Change up the teleporting rule to restrict it to a strike cruiser.
*Dropped the Dreadknights to 3+ amour.




Older Versions
Grey Knights V1.0 -2018
Attachment:
File comment: Version 1.0-2018
GreyKnights V1-2018.pdf [698.83 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:53 pm 
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The list looks cleaned up, and I approve of that. I like the land raider transport upgrade option. A few questions and comments though.

Am I right when I take it that the grand master and brotherhood champion is on the same stand?

The teleport rule bonus is kind of cool, but I do not know if it is enough, since strike squads and infiltrators with dread knights almost guarantee a blast marker, irregardless. Would it be overpowered with a teleport Walker ability to reroll ones? I think I would prefer air transport and drop pods over teleport right now. In worst case, teleport could be purchased for +25 points.

I am not sure what a grand master dread knight is, and do all dread knights come with Smite? the character options could perhaps be a bit more clearly written.

I have followed kyussinchains idea of tacticals having ff3+. I am not sure what will come of it, but I do think it would be cool on Grey Knight strike squads, to make them more of an offensive ”strike” squad instead of a grand master baby sitter to encourage people to use them, especially in this army.

I can see that the list will be unforgiving with quite few activations, and a lack of tk. the more I think of it, the more I feel that the teleport boon would be needed.

Am I right in believing that most armies would use two inquisitor warbands on garrison for activation and forward positioning? Why not at least include the option of requisited imperial wargear, like a russ platoon or a lone shadowsword/baneblade/stormblade or a couple of basilisks to make the list a little more variable. Or is there any chance of an Inquisitorial army list further down the line?

should deathcult assasins have 5+ armour save?

I can see the merit of anti-demon rules, but I would eiher ditch the rule, or make it army neutral, ignoring all invulnerable saves for everyone. the third option is to give demons a bonus, too, like adding 1 to all summoning rolls.


Edit: I noted that the land raider transport note is a copy paste error from the crusader.
Otherwise, great work,
Fredmans


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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:36 am 
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Hey Fredmans,

Thanks for taking some time and give me great detailed feedback.
I'm pretty noob when it comes to fluff and 40k in general. So I'm going to be clunky in this area. Ive only really played epic and other fantasy. So please do correct me when i get things terribly wrong.

Quote:
Am I right when I take it that the grand master and brotherhood champion is on the same stand?

I read some fluff and his suppose to be like a bodyguard character to a captain or in this case the grand master? I tried to make it see fit he would fill that roll by adding some staying power to the grand master.


Quote:
The teleport rule bonus is kind of cool, but I do not know if it is enough, since strike squads and infiltrators with dread knights almost guarantee a blast marker, irregardless. Would it be overpowered with a teleport Walker ability to reroll ones? I think I would prefer air transport and drop pods over teleport right now. In worst case, teleport could be purchased for +25 points.

I do think you right here, i just didn't want to go overboard and put in they take no blasts or get re rolled failed. There already the risk of losing turn so i guess getting to re roll failed teleport rolls or no roll giving the list some character to being teleport kings.

Quote:
I am not sure what a grand master dread knight is, and do all dread knights come with Smite? the character options could perhaps be a bit more clearly written.

My 40k knowledge showing its colors. In the 40k codex it says dread knights are psykers and they know smite?

Quote:
I have followed kyussinchains idea of tacticals having ff3+. I am not sure what will come of it, but I do think it would be cool on Grey Knight strike squads, to make them more of an offensive ”strike” squad instead of a grand master baby sitter to encourage people to use them, especially in this army.

Keen to give this a go. would make strike squads and dreadknights teleporting in half alright. Worth trying out.

Quote:
Am I right in believing that most armies would use two inquisitor warbands on garrison for activation and forward positioning? Why not at least include the option of requisited imperial wargear, like a russ platoon or a lone shadowsword/baneblade/stormblade or a couple of basilisks to make the list a little more variable. Or is there any chance of an Inquisitorial army list further down the line?

Hoping there will be a Inquisitorial army list further down the line. Kyuss and I are keen for it.

Quote:
should deathcult assasins have 5+ armour save?

Ive taking this from Mards sisters list. trying to keep consistency across the lists. Can be dropped it seems to good or not matching their save.

Quote:
I can see the merit of anti-demon rules, but I would either ditch the rule, or make it army neutral, ignoring all invulnerable saves for everyone. the third option is to give demons a bonus, too, like adding 1 to all summoning rolls.

I can see it getting dropped. Just tried to add something for character but didn't want it to be to good.

Thanks
Norto

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:44 am 
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Hi Norto! It has been a long time since I kept up with 40k lore myself.

I think the master of teleport theme is worth pursuing. It would make for a different flavour of Marines. walker would be preferable to no blast markers, keeping in theme with the epic rulesey where nothing is supposed to be certain.

So the brotherhood champion is sort of a court of the young kings, then. it could probably be a bit. clearer.

I think anything that makes grey knight look like elite marines should be considered. It should be a lower activation, elite unit feel to them.

have you considered strategy rating 6? I think it could have merit as an incentive for teleport.

When I started 40k, grey knights used a lot of librarians, so maybe that is where smite dread knights come from. If the elite theme is further thematised, terminators could come with librarians instead of captains.

/fredmans


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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Just a bit of background ALL grey knights are accomplished psykers. The dreadknight, whenever it was added (5th? 6th?) is said to be piloted via a combination of controls, neurolinks, and psychic mumbo jumbo. So we really could go multiple directions with psychic powers here even if there's difference between the exact 40k counterparts. That being said, much of the warp work most GK are doing is part of things like banishment rituals and / or buffing the bad ass psykers actual work (living batteries), or protection type defense warpcraft, etc..

So the point of the above is that we really have a lot of fluff flexibility to add psyker flavors to units and formations as needed. (I have no strong opinions on any specific units having / not having anything at this moment.).

The SR 6 I will say is totally interesting. They know where to go and when based on their psychic prognosticators and other cray cray shenanigans they're up to. It's hard to represent that in a TT game so something along those lines really could work.

I do have to applaud the fitting theme of teleportation mastery. All the little fluff bits and stories always seem to have them teleport some elites in to banish the big bad when they corner it. Give a re-read to their tactics against angron on Armageddon for example.

If you do push the teleporting theme and high SR, you're going to need to curtail the air assalt game a bit. Ditching "regular" TBricks for only Transporters (so you could airlift your tanks in but the major deployment mechanism is teleporting).

In all cases I'd suggest the approach of the least fiddliness in the actual game play. So for instance instead of throwing extra attacks everywhere and other special rules specific to every combination of units and then extra defenses here and there and FF boosts you can just easily wrap up all the custom high end equiment, psychic poswers/defenses, the protective wards built into literally EVERYTHING they use was all those fluff buffs could be easily representative of something like global Invulnerable Saves on just about everything infantry related (and Dreadknight probably). If you need to after testing you can extend it to other things if they need it.

I'd do whatever possibly thing you can do to stay away from faction/opp-for list specific tweaks/bonuses. If you want to do that, build a custom scenario for the two lists/factions, not a general EA tournament list for that.

One area that mayb be troublesome is if the GK player just keeps everything off table till T3 teleport zerg-rushing. If that proves to be an issue then I'd probably stipulate some type of teleport homer-esque tweak to them then. That's a good mechanic where you have to get something ground pounding close to the area you want them to teleport to and then you get the bonus. I'm going to counter myself though that marines can basically already do this with the so called "1st company list" already and it's not upsetting the proverbial apple cart crushing everything unfun list (e.g. Thunderfuck list)

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:36 pm 
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Nice some pretty cool ideas, do like the strat 6 teleporting kings. Would have to lose the air assault option though.

*Updated the draft to make the brotherhood champion more clearer.
*Removed Daemon Hunters
*Strat 6
*Removed air assault fr om the list besides thunderhawk transporters.
*Strike squad to a 3+ FF
*Teleport to reroll failed teleport rolls.
*Dropped smite from dreadknights.

Definitely needs some testing. But thats why we are here. I should be able to twist mordotens arm to have a game with it. Will let you know how it goes.

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:41 pm 
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No than... aaaarrrgghhg!!! Ok, ok, ok, i'll happily try it out!! :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:04 pm 
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BTW I would like to add that the Ordo Malleus list, wherein GK would be a featured elite element, is a good spot where air assaulting GK could be placed. You know... just to head off OHNOEZZZZZ posts :)

This list is pure GK so needs some extreme theming

edit: not implying mordotn's post was OHNOEZ. that was a more "in general" note related to your latest revision

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 3:28 am 
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Hey Guys,

Ive changed up the draft again, Ive been thinking about the strat 6 teleport kings alot lately and im sure in my head its just creating a un enjoyable army to play against. Ive still left in the teleport rerolls to make the option more viable and hopefully see it being used in lists. Ive also added back in the air assault.

Reasons being is, playing against necrons can pretty unejoyable sometimes. Definitely teleporting in turn 3 and not creating much of a game. Combine this with a high strat army and I'm pretty sure we will see alot of unhappy faces.


Thanks
Norto

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:29 am 
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I think it is a good call, since I have had the same thoughts myself. I have had too much of the Necron experience myself. A somewhat fiddlier option would be to keep SR 6, and have the teleport re-roll for turn 1 only, attributing it to pre-planning with psychic shenanigans, but that would only make the opponent castle up, as with Necrons.


I still support the teleport re-roll. It should be a serious option to bolster activations in an army list with serious activation limitations, and I think it should be a designer's goal to differentiate the list from other marine lists.

In the older ordo malleus list, the number of models available for teleport was tied to space ship transportation limits. in other words, the ability to teleport was tied to the space ship, just like for drop pods and planet fall. That is another way to stop people from teleporting the whole army, which can still be done.

I will hopefully get some games with it in the near future.

Cheers,
Fredmans


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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 12:56 pm 
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That's an interesting mechanic. You can teleport but only off the strike cruiser where ostensibly the superior teleportation arrays are located

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:14 pm 
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Mordoten and I had a few games and a chat about Dread Knights being to amazing. I want them to be good enough to be taken in lists but teleporting in with rerolls they are pretty much terminators with jump packs and more.

Thinking about winding them back to 3+ armour. Just wondering what people thoughts are. Would they still be worth 75 points?

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:31 pm 
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I understand your concern, and I too have considered the amazing synergy with Interceptors. Maybe 3+ armour save, Thick Rear armour (and I believe they have Invulnerable save as well). It would fit their Teleport ability and make them Terminator-like, but still not Terminators.

They would still be better than 50 points, especially given their movement.

/Fredmans


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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:43 pm 
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Yeah i still think they're worth 75p.

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 Post subject: Re: Ordo Malleus - Grey Knights 2018 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 3:44 am 
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I'm a little late to the party, but I'd like to weigh in since I'm working on putting together a GK force.
- I think the idea to limit reroll teleports off of the strike cruiser is a good one. It helps deter a turn 3, initiative 6, all in drop that would make games boring. It also adds a nice little "tax" for that reroll bonus when list building while being super fluffy and still being a useful addition via the bombardment as well.
- I like the idea of dropping dreadknights to 3+ with an invulnerable. 4+ seems a bit much especially when it's a marine, albeit grey knight, in an open exoharness. Personally, I'd rather see them stay at the 75 pt range as I feel it fits a nice roll at that range.

Keep up the great work Norto! I think you've got a list with a real unique feel to it that should be a lot of fun.

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