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Orders Malleus Grey Knights

 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:23 am 
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Are Stormtalons a thing in Epic? If they were, I thought they would be skimmers, not AC? I know Hunters are important to the list but it just doesnt feel right. Could we push for an AA upgrade to our Stormravens? Or maybe push for the inclusion of the Xiphon fighter? Or just accept that anti air is our achilles heel? Or I could just get over my hang up and stop griping about the Hunter, lol!

We've always got the old Thunderhawk, but using it for anti air is sort of forcing a square peg into a round hole, and a total waste of it's transport capabilities. I guess it's not impossible that the chapter has access to Hunters but only deploys them when they are engaging in large scale operations like in Epic. I just wish there was a more thematic way to address our anti air needs!


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 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:03 pm 
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I agree with CAA that storm talons is probably the best answer to you problem. They would be a marine specific unit with 1+ initiative to represent their eliteness.

They are actually allready available in one netEA list at least. Imperial fists. Granted the list is only developmental, but I believe the list is pretty stable by now and close to approval.

The talons have the following stats in that list.

Storm Talon Gunship A C Fighter 5+ n/a n/a
Twin-linked Assault Cannons 30cm AP4+/AT4+/AA5+ FA
Twin-linked Heavy Bolter 15cm AP4+/AA5+ FxF


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 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:14 pm 
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Yeah they're in several lists now and that's the basic stats we'll be keeping with. (two lists also offer the Typhoon pod upgrades so something to consider as well) The Talon is absolutely an AC Adeptus, not sure why they'd be skimmers. I'm actually on the fence about Ravens even being appropriately envisioned as skimmers (due to planetfall).

I kinda like the idea of the AA being Stormtalons actually though I can't envision an actual fluff reason they'd not have hunters...

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 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:26 pm 
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It just seemed odd that almost every other flier from 40k ended up as a skimmer. Vultures, valkyries, stormravens etc.I just assumed that the Stormtalon would be as well. In the end though, 40k Grey Knights don't have access to Hunters OR Stormtalons, so I guess it doesnt really matter which path we took. Either fits the theme fine. At least Hunters have a model.


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 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:35 pm 
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I agree with jimmyzimms on the storm raven, the stormtalon (with the stats Borka posted) is also in the epicuk black templars and in the dark angels as the nephilim version. Regarding the AC bomber we could go along the lines of the saturation thunderhawk bomber which is in the imperial fists and some others as well I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:45 pm 
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Works for me. So what do we reckon? Keep the Hunters and swap the Thunderbolts for Stormravens? I like the idea of a Saturation Bombing Thunderhawk.


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 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:26 pm 
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I have no opinion on the hunter. Seems like a good sollution to leave the imperial navy out in favor of the storm Talon if you want this list to be focused on the grey knights more and less of being a inqisition force.


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 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:33 pm 
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Yeah swap too stormtalon (I assume that's what meant with stormraven?) for 200 points for 2 and have the option too take 1 hunter for 75 points or 2 hunters for 125 points. Also I have written up a pdf version for what we have been discussing can post it later.

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 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:40 pm 
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Arguing that the 40k Knights don't have a Hunter, therefore the Epic ones shouldn't get a Hunter is like arguing that because they don't get a Warlord titan in that scale, they don't get one in Epic scale!

The 28mm scale game is loopy. The Storm raven is something you can stomach as it's a multi role gunship/transport vehicle, but the storm talon is an ABSURDITY that goes against decades of fluff and common sense.

Why would a space marine risk his life in a flimsy little vehicle performing air superiority roles? All space marines rely on all the other arms of the Imperium being at their disposal.

I /like/ that this army has the Inquisition and thunderbolt support. It makes sense esp. when you read the Siege of Vraks stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:19 pm 
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I don't think the question is whether they would have Imperial flyers it's what would reflect the theme of the list. I feel the stormtalon fits better into what is primarily a grey knight list. Due to the specialist nature of the formations within the list and the lack of any support a better air formation is essential. Maybe keep the use of Imperial support for a more Inquisition based list like the deathwatch.

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 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:22 pm 
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Yeah this isn't a generic Ordos Hereticus list but GK specific so it fits. (though I'd love another hereticus one with some limited GK allies as well modeled a bit off Vraks and other fluff)

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Last edited by jimmyzimms on Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:25 pm 
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Consul Avenging Angel wrote:
Yeah swap too stormtalon (I assume that's what meant with stormraven?) for 200 points for 2 and have the option too take 1 hunter for 75 points or 2 hunters for 125 points. Also I have written up a pdf version for what we have been discussing can post it later.


Sweet, sounds good to me :)

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Arguing that the 40k Knights don't have a Hunter, therefore the Epic ones shouldn't get a Hunter is like arguing that because they don't get a Warlord titan in that scale, they don't get one in Epic scale!


Well sort of. The difference being that obviously one is a humungous walking robot of death, only making appearances in large scale engagements, while the other is mounted on a rhino chassis.

To be honest, it's not something I really feel strongly about. Like I said earlier, I can imagine the GK having a range of vehicles and weapons available to them and when fighting larger scale operations like in NetEA, they pull out the big toys.

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The Storm raven is something you can stomach as it's a multi role gunship/transport vehicle, but the storm talon is an ABSURDITY that goes against decades of fluff and common sense.


I agree, in a perfect would the Stormraven would count as a flier rather than a skimmer. But it appears the Astartes community as a whole has decided a skimmer best fits their profile which is fine I guess.

Quote:
I /like/ that this army has the Inquisition and thunderbolt support. It makes sense esp. when you read the Siege of Vraks stuff.


I like it too, but I also like that in 40K an inquisitor and his troops can fight alongside any Imperial force. It would be cool if the Inquisition stuff was split out into a separate list that could be added to any Imperial list, so I could have Inquisitors in my regular marines or my Imperial Guard.

My main beef when I started posting on this thread was to get the stats for the GK infantry sorted out since they seemed very backwards. Now that everyone seems happy with the proposed changes it's just a matter of looking at the last pieces of the puzzle and thinking "is this the most Grey Knights option we can come up with?" I mean, regular Astartes are probably going to be operating in a joint Imperial taskforce most of the time, and when they're not they can at least use Hunters to try and keep the skies clear. Grey Knights on the other hand almost never fight alongside other Imperial forces, and in 40K at least rely on their Stormravens to keep the enemy fliers at bay. It could make sense though, for them to have access to Hunters and when anticipating more enemy fliers to deploy them.

AC Stormravens would make more sense to me than Thunderbolts, but I can understand why they are the way they are.

At the very least, it would be cool if we could replace their missiles with some kind of anti-air missile. I mean, they lost their Mindstrike missiles in the last codex and they got Stormstrike missiles instead, so I don't see why not, except that it might upset other Astartes players that our Stormravens have better stats than theirs.

I know personally that if I could rely on my Stormravens to provde some anti-air firepower, I wouldn't bother with Stormtalons.


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 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:27 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Yeah this isn't a generic Ordos Hereticus list but GK specific (though I'd love a hereticus with some limited GK allies as well)


It would be cool if you could have a generic Inquisition list, and then have units of Inquisitors and Acolytes.

You could have Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors, and choosing them would unlock a selection of Sisters of Battle choices.

You could have Ordo Malleus Inquisitors, and choosing them would unlock a selection of Grey Knights choices.

And finally you could have Ordo Xenos Inquisitors, and choosing them would unlock a selection of Deathwatch choices.

And you could add them to any Imperial list, which would be awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:12 pm 
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I like your enthusiasm, but sorting out specific sisters/grey knights lists are the main focus atm and as they needs testing you guys have got to play games and do battle reports.

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 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:43 pm 
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Consul Avenging Angel wrote:
I like your enthusiasm, but sorting out specific sisters/grey knights lists are the main focus atm and as they needs testing you guys have got to play games and do battle reports.


Roger that!


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