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Big Battle - Ordos Xenos

 Post subject: Big Battle - Ordos Xenos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:14 pm 
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I played in a 6000 point Big Battle alongside Space Marines against Orks. Lots of Orks. Two armies on each side, each army had to bring a Titan.

My list was as follows:
1 Inquisitor Retinue with Inquisitor Lord plus one Support Staff stand – 265
1 Gun Cutter with glavian pilot – 175
1 Capitol Imperialis - 600
1 Imperial Guard Platoon – 250
1 Strike Cruiser – 200
Storm Trooper Platoon + Valkyries + Commissar – 435
Kill Team w/ Librarian + Terminator – 350
Kill Team w/ Librarian – 300
Thunderhawk Destructor – 250
Thunderbolt Squadron – 175
2990 points

Pictures will be forthcoming – they are stuffed in a bag in my basement along with the Epic units.

The battle went to mid-way of turn 2 and was not good for our side even at the end of turn 1. Highlights…
I had an Orbital Bombardment that was placed perfectly to hit a Stompa Mob, Gargant, and Great Gargant. Since the Kill Teams were coming in Drop Pods, I waited as long as I could for the Orks to burn activations. And they did burn them.
With wave after wave of Fighta-Bommers the Orks crippled my Storm Troopers before they could even move off the back line. I un-CAPd my T-Bolts to shoot at the first wave and made a decision to get in close to shoot all four AA5+ shots. The Ork player only had one shot coming back at me by the way I placed it so I figured I was safe. He hit, I failed my save, I died. So I was left with only two shots anyway. More Fighta-Bommers came in as well and wiped out my remaining T-Bolt and killed more Valkyries which meant my very expensive Stormtroopers were hoofing it.

Let’s stop and talk about Stormtroopers. At 225 they are already more expensive than regular IG Stormtoopers by +25 points. Valkyries are +10 more expensive at 40 points each. There is no way to really afford a Commissar at +50 points, but I tried one out anyway. Food for thought – this formation is not worth it at 435 points. I’ll never take them again at that price – I might try them without the Commissar I suppose. Maybe. I dunno.

The Capitol Imperialis. I sustained with it in order to clear some opposition for my dropping Kill Teams. I hit two formations and ripped them up pretty bad. Now I had my IG inside the CI so indirect firing was a questionable tactic. As it turned out it didn’t matter if I moved that CI up at all. With a 10cm move the game was going to be over before it would ever come into play, even if I marched it. The armament on it is not terrible, but I wonder how often I would want to sink 600 points into a 6BP artillery piece? I suppose I could move it up, but then I am missing out on any usefulness for a turn. One thing the CI is not good for is transporting troops. In retrospect I would have been better off garrisoning them.

I was running out of activations quickly so I was forced to activate the strike cruiser. The OB with all its MW glory stripped one shield off the Great Gargant, did nothing to the Gargant, and killed one Stompa. My Kill Teams fell into the woods and the Deathwind pods fired relentlessly at some Big Gunz. BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! Five were in range, zero were killed. When the two kill teams fell in only one of them the Overwatch from the Big Gunz triggered and I lost 2 stands from one team and 1 stand from the other. Any hope of an assault with them went out the window.

The T-Hawk Destructor was supposed to be for an evac, but I could risk moving the Kill Teams out of the woods so instead I used it to destroy Ork buggies. It did a great job of killing Orks for sure.

Then came the fun. I brought in the Inquisitor Lord on the Gun Cutter and landed it next to the Big Gunz. The Assault cost me one Warrior Henchmen and –with the Kill Teams in support, the Big Gunz were wiped out completely. Inquisition and the remains of two Kill Teams were bundled neatly together in the woods. A Big Mob came in and shot at a Kill Team but cover and luck and Orks hitting on a 8+ meant I lost only one.

My position was workable if I could extract the Kill Teams and the Inquisitorial Retinue. Otherwise I was about to get hammered by a Big Mob, a Stompa Mob, and a Gargant. End of turn one I disengaged the T-Hawk. Flying it out meant braving a whopping ONE flak truck with 2 x AA6+ shots which were at a -1 because of the disengage. With the Orks hitting on 7’s… One hit! I rolled, failed. Reinforced armor… Failed! Critical roll… 6! The T-Hawk exploded. :o

I disengaged the Gun Cutter, but this one had to go across two flak trucks. 4 x AA6+ at a -1. Two hits, despite the penalty. One saved, one didn’t. Critical… 6! The gun cutter falls from the sky. :'(

All this was going on while my Space Marine partner wasn’t doing well either. Any support on the left side of the board hinged on his Warlord titan moving first. It had 3 BMs that it could not shed during rallying. It had taken 1 damage already. Turn two the Orks win Strategy and break the Warlord titan. My Kill teams and Inquisitor are all alone. In desperation I engage the Big Mob with the Inquisitorial Retinue who is forced to charge the Kill Teams betwixt the two. The whole thing turns into a giant assault with three of my formations against his Big Mob. The special forces win and the Big Mob breaks. The problem is I’ve played it wrong and used the Librarians as Inspiring when they actually have MWs. To make up for the error, we roll the two librarian hits… Both miss. If both had hit the assault would have stood. If one had hit it would have tied. But now I’ve lost and the entire flank falls. It is time to call it.

With a game like this it is difficult to gauge the effectiveness of the army. I can truthfully say the Stormtroopers are overpriced and the Capitol Imperialis is just weird. It isn’t a good transport. It’s too expensive for an artillery piece. I suppose moving it up on the double is an option, but what to do with it from there is a mystery. It seems like it would be an interesting piece in a larger 1v1 game, but as it stands I don’t know how to use it. Kill Teams were fun. Inquisitors were fun.

Let’s talk VTOL. I don’t know why this rule exists. I understand the intent behind it, but it feels odd to have VTOL when you have Valkyries and T-Hawks in the same list that presumably are built around the same technology. I didn’t bother playing with it because it felt wrong thematically. You have Aquilas and Gun Cutters. I would make one a skimmer (Aquilas) and the other a bomber transport and be done with it. Of course making the Aquilas skimmers means changing their price. Even with the VTOL ability they aren’t worth nearly 50 points when you can get a Valkyrie for 40 points that has more than double the points. Making Aquilas bomber transports means you have to bend the non-WE transport rule. Not sure how to fix this but it does need fixing.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Battle - Ordos Xenos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:24 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Big Battle - Ordos Xenos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:53 pm 
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Meh, the pictures weren't all that comprehensive either.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Battle - Ordos Xenos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:16 pm 
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It does seem like you had some rotten luck at times, which can skew a unit's effectiveness.

Moscovian wrote:
Let’s stop and talk about Stormtroopers. At 225 they are already more expensive than regular IG Stormtoopers by +25 points. Valkyries are +10 more expensive at 40 points each. There is no way to really afford a Commissar at +50 points, but I tried one out anyway. Food for thought – this formation is not worth it at 435 points. I’ll never take them again at that price – I might try them without the Commissar I suppose. Maybe. I dunno.


I've thought the Stormtroopers were a little overpriced too, but I was waiting for feedback from someone else. I think a drop to 200 points is warranted. As for the Valkyries, I'd like to keep them as a transport option for units besides Stromtroopers. I'm not sure 10 points more for 4 Valkyries is that is much of a difference points-wise from their IG counterparts. I suppose the cost could be reduced to 35 points each, but would that then make them underpriced?

Quote:
With a game like this it is difficult to gauge the effectiveness of the army. I can truthfully say the Stormtroopers are overpriced and the Capitol Imperialis is just weird. It isn’t a good transport. It’s too expensive for an artillery piece. I suppose moving it up on the double is an option, but what to do with it from there is a mystery. It seems like it would be an interesting piece in a larger 1v1 game, but as it stands I don’t know how to use it. Kill Teams were fun. Inquisitors were fun.


I like the Inquisitors and kill teams, too. The CI has always been a curious beast: too slow to be a truly effective transport and not cost effective for its armament. To be honest, I'm not quite sure how to utilize it effectively either. I might drop it, and the Black Citadel, from the list.

Quote:
Let’s talk VTOL. I don’t know why this rule exists. I understand the intent behind it, but it feels odd to have VTOL when you have Valkyries and T-Hawks in the same list that presumably are built around the same technology. I didn’t bother playing with it because it felt wrong thematically. You have Aquilas and Gun Cutters. I would make one a skimmer (Aquilas) and the other a bomber transport and be done with it. Of course making the Aquilas skimmers means changing their price. Even with the VTOL ability they aren’t worth nearly 50 points when you can get a Valkyrie for 40 points that has more than double the points. Making Aquilas bomber transports means you have to bend the non-WE transport rule. Not sure how to fix this but it does need fixing.


VTOL is of course a holdover from the previous version. I like the idea of it, but I'm not convinced it's even needed. The Aquila is overpriced at 50 points. The easiest solution is to drop VTOL and make it an AV just like the Valkyrie, but can Planetfall be kept if it's not an aircraft? I agree the Gun Cutter is fine without VTOL and probably would still be worth 125 points.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Battle - Ordos Xenos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:34 pm 
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Gun Cutter ran great, right up to the point where it was shot out of the sky by a grot with a cork gun. Aquilas can definitely be planetfall and be skimmers which would somewhat mimic the effect Lord Inquisitor was looking for. Essentially they could planetfall in carrying Imperial Guard troops to some corner of the battlefield and then remain with them in support. That means having six of them, however, which might get expensive on the real pocket book. Another interesting consideration is IF you make them only skimmers, would they retain their AA5+ shot? If so, people might take them for the sole purpose of having a devilish flak platform. Two Aquilas carrying around a retinue at –say 35 points each- would be a floating flak formation of 2 x AA5+ 30cm range, all for a bargain basement price of 270 points. Imperial guard could take them and get 6 x AA5+ for 460 points.

The CI is one to watch. It may be one of those units that can stay in the list but is highly specialized. The Citadel is untested for me – I’d like to try it out but I don’t know the specifics of how you want it played.

Some other things you never clarified… Can Deathwatch take Imperial transports? Can Imperial forces take Deathwatch transports? If they are completely interchangeable or exclusive or a mix, you need to say so. I suppose Imperial Guard could be evac’d on a Thunderhawk (assuming there are only 6 left), but you can’t fit a Stormtooper formation or an IG formation on the Deathwatch T-hawk.

Lots to think about here.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Battle - Ordos Xenos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:58 pm 
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Moscovian wrote:
Gun Cutter ran great, right up to the point where it was shot out of the sky by a grot with a cork gun. Aquilas can definitely be planetfall and be skimmers which would somewhat mimic the effect Lord Inquisitor was looking for. Essentially they could planetfall in carrying Imperial Guard troops to some corner of the battlefield and then remain with them in support. That means having six of them, however, which might get expensive on the real pocket book. Another interesting consideration is IF you make them only skimmers, would they retain their AA5+ shot? If so, people might take them for the sole purpose of having a devilish flak platform. Two Aquilas carrying around a retinue at –say 35 points each- would be a floating flak formation of 2 x AA5+ 30cm range, all for a bargain basement price of 270 points. Imperial guard could take them and get 6 x AA5+ for 460 points.


Hmm, hadn't thought about the AA shot. I think making the Aquila a skimmer would warrant dropping the AA shot for the reasons you pointed out. I'm not as concerned about the real world cost of them, as there are plenty of proxies that can be used.

Quote:
The CI is one to watch. It may be one of those units that can stay in the list but is highly specialized. The Citadel is untested for me – I’d like to try it out but I don’t know the specifics of how you want it played.


I'm not sure how to play the Black Citadel either. :P I'm leaning towards removing it completely.

Quote:
Some other things you never clarified… Can Deathwatch take Imperial transports? Can Imperial forces take Deathwatch transports? If they are completely interchangeable or exclusive or a mix, you need to say so. I suppose Imperial Guard could be evac’d on a Thunderhawk (assuming there are only 6 left), but you can’t fit a Stormtooper formation or an IG formation on the Deathwatch T-hawk.


Yes, perhaps some clarification is needed, but it does state that the Kill Team takes "Deathwatch Transport", not "Transport." I've used the Deathwatch T-hawk and it never occurred to me that it could evac IG or Stormtroopers! I'm guessing Lord Inquisitor's intention was not to have them interchangeable.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Battle - Ordos Xenos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:02 pm 
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Lots of bad luck there, but looking at the Xenos list, it looks... tricky to use.

I have some suggestions but I'll take them to the other thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Big Battle - Ordos Xenos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:05 pm 
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CaptainSenioris wrote:
I have some suggestions but I'll take them to the other thread.


I'm looking forward to your thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Battle - Ordos Xenos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:27 pm 
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I thought the Storm Troopers originally had a price boost because of Initiative 1+. With the lack of Commissars, they could probably stay at 200.

/Fredmans


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 Post subject: Re: Big Battle - Ordos Xenos
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:01 pm 
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Here are some pictures...

As mentioned above, there is nothing terribly revealing other than the fact that I need to paint more minis.

@Fredmans, wouldn't the same apply to the Space Marines who are now fighting with a 3+ SR (at a -2 deficit)? yet the Deathwatch are definitely not less expensive.


Attachments:
Orks surround the Warlord.JPG
Orks surround the Warlord.JPG [ 398.55 KiB | Viewed 4472 times ]
Capitol Imperialis.JPG
Capitol Imperialis.JPG [ 394.73 KiB | Viewed 4472 times ]
Inquisitor moves in.JPG
Inquisitor moves in.JPG [ 397.04 KiB | Viewed 4472 times ]
Bommers eat my Stormtroopers.JPG
Bommers eat my Stormtroopers.JPG [ 397.28 KiB | Viewed 4472 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Big Battle - Ordos Xenos
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:58 pm 
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Moscovian wrote:
@Fredmans, wouldn't the same apply to the Space Marines who are now fighting with a 3+ SR (at a -2 deficit)? yet the Deathwatch are definitely not less expensive.


That's actually a good point. Do you think the cost of Deathwatch formations should be lowered due to a lower SR? I'm inclined to say "No", because they still have an initative of 1 and TSKNF.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Battle - Ordos Xenos
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:12 pm 
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So far I wouldn't change anything on that front. I think the SR benefits some units while hindering others, but I'm okay with that. Of course I may change my mind with more games; we'll see.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Battle - Ordos Xenos
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:28 pm 
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Moscovian wrote:
@Fredmans, wouldn't the same apply to the Space Marines who are now fighting with a 3+ SR (at a -2 deficit)? yet the Deathwatch are definitely not less expensive.


If you read my quote, you will see that I support your findings. I think 200 is a more reasonable cost than 225. It lacks Commisar, but gains Initiative (and in the case of Storm troopers even a SR boost as well.) I just stated what I recall to be the reason for the original price increase. As for Deathwatch, I have only played Ordo Malleus, but the Inquisitorial section is [was] the same.

/Fredmans


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 Post subject: Re: Big Battle - Ordos Xenos
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:16 pm 
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Sorry if my post came off as argumentative - it wasn't intended as such.

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