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Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth

 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:17 pm 
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Hi!

Word of advise, shields dragstas, the ork players best friend. ;)

Awesome report, thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:54 pm 
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Love these old school SM2 battle reports!

The classic minis, the terrain, the cards....you've nailed it, it's like its 1992 again and I'm reading a white dwarf battle report of Andy Chambers beating up on Jervis Johnson :)

Thanks for taking me back in time to the epic golden age, a real inspiration.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:46 pm 
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Thanks for posting an enjoyable report.

One point that stood out was that you referred to breaking a Guardian detachment. I assume that you meant the Defender Host, because the detachment itself couldn't break, unless the host itself had been broken.

NetEpic makes super heavies like the Gibletgrinda a bit tougher, so that might be one reason to update the rules that you play ;). That said, they were pretty tough in SM2, so you were unlucky there.

Eldar Phantom Titans equipped with Heat Lances are one of my favourite units. They are very powerful, and the Slasha Gargant was always destined to lose a one on one titan fight. I think that it dealt out plenty of damage, and removing the Fire Dragons (I assume that you destroyed them in their transports?) was crucial to help you out, but some more support was needed.

I agree with Primarch about adding a Dragsta. I also think that you could experiment with the Mekboy Bubble Chukka Speedster. That's great for making it risky for your opponent to fire titan weapons.

On the Eldar side, he had a good plan to attack on the flank. I'm surprised about the inclusion of the sole Fire Prism though. It looked like a bit of a filler unit to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:19 pm 
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Well I'm not sure I'll ever use the dragsta since I am trying to just stick with what came in the original games except for what you've seen to this point. If I let scope creep start, then I will just be playing a full fledged epic universe and dont want to head down that road.

Yeah typing this all out on my phone is a pain in the ass and I forget alot or make a mistake, it was the defender host that broke. And the fire dragons were out in the open. Just managed to nail all 4 of them in one go.

Also, the Fire Prism is one of those 'extra' units I included in my set just because I found some issues coming up with certain point totals by being off by 50 points. So I just included one. Not that I would ever go beyond that I think the chain firing thing is ridiculous. Hate the old Spinners too. Dont mind the Wave Serpents though.

Btw, anyone got enough Exarch models to make 4 stands laying around not being used? We could use them. As of right now I only have one Eldar command unit. :/


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:20 pm 
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Btw I do plan on expanding on the Orks with a Deathskulls mob and 5 Traktor Cannons to go with them. Just because they are cheap mostly.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:08 pm 
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KTG17 wrote:
Well I'm not sure I'll ever use the dragsta since I am trying to just stick with what came in the original games except for what you've seen to this point. If I let scope creep start, then I will just be playing a full fledged epic universe and dont want to head down that road.


You've confused me a bit here. Based on the cards in the photos, and some of the units choices, I was under the impression that you were using the Renegades and Ork and Squat Warlords supplements. Is this not so? If you are using the Ork and Squat Warlords book, then I'm sure that the Dragsta's rules are there, so you wouldn't be using models outside the original game, so far as I understand it.

Quote:
Yeah typing this all out on my phone is a pain in the ass and I forget alot or make a mistake, it was the defender host that broke. And the fire dragons were out in the open. Just managed to nail all 4 of them in one go.


Sounds as though the Fire Dragons disembarked prematurely in that case, or you were just wise to the threat which they posed ;).

Quote:
Also, the Fire Prism is one of those 'extra' units I included in my set just because I found some issues coming up with certain point totals by being off by 50 points. So I just included one. Not that I would ever go beyond that I think the chain firing thing is ridiculous. Hate the old Spinners too. Dont mind the Wave Serpents though.


Heresy, the Doomweavers are wonderful units and models :P. I'd definitely advise your friend to field Doomweavers against your Orks, they're especially nasty against hordes.

On the issue of expanding your Ork force, if you don't want to go down the Dragsta route, then the way to make your Evil Sunz more effective is to add more to them, rather than to take another Clan card. You need, in my view, to get their break point up higher to make it more difficult for your flank attack to be neutralised. Also, if you deploy the Slasha Gargant, so that it's closer to them in the next game, and they can support each other, you may find that this helps too.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:33 am 
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I hate sorting out the doomweaver's little templates. If they had just done like a 10cm circular template or something I would have been fine, but its one of those things I think just slows the game down. We played them once in my old old gaming group and were like f*** this. Never used them again.

As far as what I am playing with, it goes like this. Actually I kind summed it up in the first few posts of the thread. I really just wanted to get the most bang for my buck using what came in a new starter set I picked up. I did get the colored version of the cards and the rulebooks from various sources, like some from Primarch! But this set was meant to be used with family in friends much like you would keep Monopoly and Catan for them.

There's no way I am putting out my personal armies for this.

So that being said, there are some units I included that were outside the original rulebook like the Phantom, Slasha, Gibletgrinda and so forth, because I already had those extras, and figured it would be good to have the Orks and Eldar have something to match the Warlord. So I took apart those rulebooks and put those pages and bounded them with the main rulebook. Really random I know, but its kind of like capping what I wanted to spend on this.

There's a lot in that main rulebook, just not a lot of sexy units. And thats ok.

About all I plan of adding to the Ultramarines is enough more Land Raiders to make a company, and a Terminator Detachment. And hopefully the Exarchs for the Eldars. Then thats it. It would put my three armies (minus the Sons of Horus) about 3000 points of stuff each. Thats plenty. We probably have enough there to play another dozen games with that, even combining them to make allies too which we'll eventually do.

Btw, I do have my own personal armies for AT/SM1 all the way up to Epic 40k, in various stages of completion, but I really dont like others handing those only cause I put a lot into them. No one treats your babies like you do if you know what I mean. I wouldnt call what you see in the table as expendable, but if one of my friends or nephews broke something I would freak out.

I have a Epic 40k set waiting in the wings just using just the Space Marines and Orks that either came in the set, or are mentioned in the scenerios in the Battles book. We'll be hitting that at some point. I gave Josh some extra Epic40k stuff I was able to get.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:36 am 
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As far as the Evil Sunz, its just that I am realizing they arent really good at anything but speed. Once they get somewhere, then what? The are easy to kill, and dont kill well themselves.

I did plan on trying to support the Slasher, but my brain fart forced the guys who were support him to turn back, and then they got jumped.

Lots went wrong in that game lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:17 am 
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Great report, thanks again!

Yep, I wouldn't bother with the Evil Sunz. Goffs and Bad Moons are always the first port of call and give them Battlewagon or sufficient Gibletgrinda transports so you can get them where you want them relatively quickly.

I don't know if it's in the version of the rules you are using, but the Kult of Speed is what I'd take rather than the Evil Sunz.

It seems that you were unfortunate with your Gargant, I've seen them survive terrible punishment, but then your opponent was smart using the heat lance to deal with him. On the other hand you were lucky not to overload your Weirdboy Towers, when they go they can take out the whole Clan (which has happened to me) and really that can be game over immediately. Part of the fun though!

@Irisado: sorry, I hadn't noticed your question about the Titan reactor. My understanding is that this will be removed for updated Net Epic Gold, but Primarch will know better. It's a small fix but it makes the balance of the game so much better. If a reactor failed it's armour save you were essentially talking about a 50/50 chance of the a Titan being wiped out which was too severe in my opinion. With the reactor replaced by legs, it is the head which is the target meaning that it is a 1/3 chance of being destroyed. This doesn't sound like much but having played several battles this way the balance feels much better.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:58 pm 
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I love the Goffs, they are the core of my own army along with the Cult of Speed, the Goffs require a lot of nobz stands and I didnt/dont have many. Plus they are expensive pointwise. Thats why I am going with Deathskulls next. Only 500 points for the clan I think.

Despite the problems I had with the Evil Sunz, they look great on the board.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:39 pm 
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Yeah, I have the same feeling about all of my Ork forces since I painted them. They're close to useless as they frequently take a whipping but I don't care: they look so good! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:41 pm 
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KTG17 wrote:
I hate sorting out the doomweaver's little templates. If they had just done like a 10cm circular template or something I would have been fine, but its one of those things I think just slows the game down. We played them once in my old old gaming group and were like f*** this. Never used them again.


That's nothing compared to how slow it was to sort things out in 40K and Fantasy during the same decade. Maybe that's why I never had a problem with it. That and the fact that I loved the models. The trouble was that I mostly faced Space Marines, so there were few opportunities to field my Doomweavers. They're pretty ineffective against Marines, except for area denial.

The Bissler wrote:
@Irisado: sorry, I hadn't noticed your question about the Titan reactor. My understanding is that this will be removed for updated Net Epic Gold, but Primarch will know better. It's a small fix but it makes the balance of the game so much better. If a reactor failed it's armour save you were essentially talking about a 50/50 chance of the a Titan being wiped out which was too severe in my opinion. With the reactor replaced by legs, it is the head which is the target meaning that it is a 1/3 chance of being destroyed. This doesn't sound like much but having played several battles this way the balance feels much better.


I thought that it was a Platinum change, hence my confusion. Okay, on paper this seems reasonable. Is it currently being debated anywhere in a separate thread? I haven't seen one.

On the topic of Evil Sunz, they're okay, but I too always preferred the Kult of Speed. Still, in view of the limitations outlined, it will probably be necessary to stick with the Evil Sunz.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:14 am 
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I can't remember where this was discussed, it was about a year ago. It was at the same time as we were considering giving Titans the HQ (charge & ff) ability - because we felt Titans weren't as powerful as Praetorians that they needed to be improved. The HQ idea turned out to be overpowered but the removal of the front reactor made a huge difference to the durability of Titans.

We replaced the reactor with a legs location with a 1+ save.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:26 pm 
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Hi guys, its been awhile since my last update, but we did get in a few more games. Unfortunately, I got pushed into my pool with my iphone in my pocket, and have been waiting for the iphone 6 plus to be available to replace it (I have Verizon and was up for a new upgrade). But then it sold out, and it's finally on its way.

Anyway, we decided to give Titan Legions a try, just playing some of the scenerios from the Titan Legions box set (Fires of Whatver), and then tried out a game of Space Marine and Orks using some of the minis we've played with previously. It had been ages since I played Titan Legions, so it took a bit to learn how to play the Imperator and Mega Gargants all over again.

And with that said, I honestly believe Titan Legions broke Epic.

Now, before I get into why, let me just say that I love the Imperator as much as anyone, and the Mega Gargant... well, the model isn't so hot, but I love the concept. But playing them is a real pain in the ass, and really bogs down the game in many ways. Its really like you are playing two different games in the same space. And another thing I have found which I have suspected, that implementing the newer rule of weapons having to have at least a -1 save modifier to knock down void shields, really meant that a whole host of miniatures which were fine to play with before, were now next to useless, and probably not even worth purchasing when this game was in it's peak. It really turns the game into 'My Super Weapons vs Your Super Weapons'. Even worse, the point values for those units didn't go down as they should for not being as useful as before that rule, nor did the price of Titans that used them go up. I know we talked about this before, but going through I wanted to vent about it. It wasnt often that that situation came up, but it was pretty lame when it did.

Our last game was kind of ambitious in size and with my table, meant we didnt have a lot of room for maneuver, but we used a lot of what I had, and we never got around to finishing the game.

The biggest issue we had besides trying to remember all of the rules for the Imperator and Mega Gargant, was all the space the templates took up. Our games of Space Marine already took up a lot of space for the Army Cards, but we had even less space for an Imperator and 2 Mega Gargant cards. I can see why it wasnt long before GW started releasing games that removed the clutter of counters and things like that, because the gaming table was a real mess. I am amazed that a beer hasn't been knocked over them (knock on wood).

It got me thinking how Titan Legions was so Andy Chambers. Overly complicated rules with lots of BS. Anyone remember his first White Dwarf article? It was introducing Knights to Epic back in AT/SM1. While interesting reading, I remember much of it we casted aside. I just feel that until the later part of his career at GW, he just added to many layers to a gaming system. But then again, he had a hand in some of my favorite GW games. And while I have to be honest I have very little interest in playing the Imperator anytime soon again in SM2/TL, I have to be honest and say (here I go again) how Epic 40k did a great job with war engines. Look at the Imperator's data card... everything you need fits on that card. That is amazing. It may not feel like the massive beast it is in SM2/TL, but its far more playable.

I love owning Titan Legions. While disappointed that it came with counters for infantry, it is no doubt a direction GW needed to take with Space Marine. The only problem is, they released a game that is a pain in the ass to play, and its novelty wears off pretty quickly.

All this made me look back at what I set out to do with my Space Marine (v2) set, which was to only build those Space Marine, Ork, and Eldar armies by (mostly) using what units that were listed in the main rulebook. I have to admit that there is a lot of game in that set, although it might be rather boring to the veteran Epic player. But aside for a few misprints or rule changes to the Eldar units, the set is a pretty complete game. Titan Legions on the otherhand, is nothing but crack. Its basically telling you right up front you will need, want, a whole host of other things.

I don't want to sound too critical of Epic (SM2/TL) here, I do love the games, but I do think Space Marine is a better game than Space Marine + Titan Legions. And I do like the Knights and Tyranids that followed, but just judging the two games themselves, Titan Legions is like the game that had to happen, but minorly screwed things up a bit.

When you think about the units that originally came with Space Marine, the vast majority of the unit cards are infantry. Lots of little guys. The single Warlord is like Godzilla, and the color comes from the variety of infantry that have no save. Titan Legions really changed all that, and by design.

Anyway, we're moving on to Epic 40k next, but it will be awhile. We're starting out playing a couple of the refight battles, which are kind of lame with 3 detachments against 3 detachments, but I think it will be a good place to start. But I wouldn't say our time with Epic Space Marine is over. My friend loves it and I don't think Epic 40k is going to change his mind, so I am sure we'll be back at some point.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Space Marine v2 the rebirth
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:39 pm 
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I agree that TL was when 2nd edition got way too bloated and fiddly, the one advantage you had was when playing a multi-player game, you could give the imperator to your buddy and it would feel like he had an entire army to manage while you played with all the other detachments ;)

I liked the -1 modifier required to knock shields down myself, I felt they were much too easy to strip before, but it definitely encouraged use of the tougher units much more

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