*sigh* I feel dirty already.....

OK, so as a continued effort to actually get some gaming in, I am going to have to compromise.... At least initially.

40K is an obvious step as I am familiar with the background, already enjoy painting the minis and have played a couple of previous editions (although.... first and fourth....). But, I have no idea what the current state of the game is.

As far as I understand it, seventh edition has just been released, and all current codex books are for sixth edition, but still work OK for seventh.

Does anyone know where I can find information about.....

- A general overview of the rules, the process for moving and firing and close combat and psychics.
- What the schedule is for releasing seventh edition codex books.
- Any rumours on what these codex books will include.

I know that Warseer is excellent for this stuff, but the basic info that I am looking for seems to be hidden away. I have a couple of YouTube play through videos book marked, so I will look at them too.

For reference, I am particularly interested in Tyranids, Tau, Eldar, and maybe Marines.

Thanks for any help.

_________________
https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.

I don't really have any suggestions for an overview of the rules short of hunting out a digital copy but it looks like there's really not all that much difference between 6th and 7th from what I can see. They've tightened up some rules and changed the way you build an army and they've made all units scoring, with troop units taking precedence over other unit types in cases where objectives are contested which is kind of nice. They've also created a specific Psychic phase and overhauled the mechanics so it basically runs like a Fantasy Battle magic phase now. It's basically 6.1 + a magic/psychic phase - but I'm not sure that's going to help you particularly by the sound of it...

Anything that's got a 6th ed codex should be fine for 7th and they've updated the FAQs on the Black Library site to cover most of the possible queries. I can imagine they might start dropping psyker based characters or units in new codices but that's about it really. The release schedule does seem to be accelerating though with weekly releases now as opposed to monthly. Tyranid players are constantly complaining that their army is underpowered but I have no experience with or against them so I can't really comment. It looks they have a couple of viable builds at least, but Genestealers for example are constantly touted as being good on paper but rubbish on the table, which is a shame for such an iconic unit. Tau and Eldar are both solid and playable and Marines are, well Marines are Marines - like everyone else but a bit better from what I can tell!!!

At the moment I'd say your experience with 40k is going to rely heavily on the people you play with. There's a massive split between those who want to play "competitively" and will constantly try to break the ruleset and create unintended, but perfectly legal forces, and the beer and pretzel brigade who just want to have fun pushing minis around the table for a few hours. It's not a particularly well balanced ruleset really and shooting seems far more reliable that assault. The new psychic mechanics look fine for what they are, but you do appear to need to go big or go home to get anything from them. My opinion that competitive 40k isn't a million miles away from competitive snap, or maybe scissors, paper, stone if I'm feeling generous - the rules haven't really been designed to be competitive in that way, it's certainly a world away from epic in that regard. I'm sure others would disagree though.

All in all, you can't rely on the rules to guarantee a fun game, it's now, more than ever, quite open ended as a ruleset - if you bring a "fluffy" army to a game against someone who's honed his force to win at all costs you really might as well not bother putting anything on the table. That is the one striking difference I noticed about coming back to Epic, in Epic, you're always in with a shot, in 40k, it's quite possible you might not have a hope to begin with.

Alf has hit the nail on the head, really.

40k isn't meant to be played competitively. It's meant for role-playing with miniatures. The divide between the casual players and the competitive players is deep and acrimonious. The competitives outnumber the casuals, in my experience. The competitives are probably playing the wrong game.

In any event, Warseer is perhaps the most toxic gaming forum around. It's jokingly referred to as Whineseer. I recommend Dakka Dakka instead. Friendlier atmosphere. Still a lot of nerd rage and geek angst there, but it's better than Warseer. Warseer will make you want to kill every 40k player you meet if you hang out there long enough.

To answer your three questions -

1) I honestly couldn't tell you. I don't think I've seen a concise synopsis of the 40k ruleset anywhere. My advice would be to see if you are able to download the rules somewhere and give them a skim.

2) New codex books are released roughly every 3 - 6 months. The release schedule is a very closely guarded secret, and rumor discussions on the forums are every bit as popular as discussion of the game itself. The truth is, you won't know when a codex will be released until about a month out, and even then you will only know if you follow the rumors closely. If you don't follow the rumors, your lead time will be about one week. Orks are rumored to the next book to be redone.

3) Again, changes to army books are very closely guarded secrets. No one really knows what will be included in them until shortly before they are released. In general, the army books contain the stats and rules you will need to know to play that army. Occasionally, supplemental army books are released such as the Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter, and Iron Hands books.

As far as army selection, the advice you will hear most often is to pick the army you like from a fluff and aesthetic standpoint. I agree with that advice. The power levels of each army wax and wane wildly over time. Orks were a mighty army the last time their book was updated at the end of 4th edition. They're not so powerful now that we are at the start of 7th. Blood Angels were considered the most brokenly powerful army ever when their most recent book dropped mid-5th. Now they are considered one of the weakest.

I know Tyranids just got an update, but I've been out of the 40k loop lately, so I haven't heard much about how they fared in terms of power. I know that they tend to be a perennially weak army. Tau and Eldar are both extremely powerful at the moment. However, again, before both of those armies were updated, they were at the very bottom in terms of power, and I believe both went nearly seven years without an update. Marines are always viable, and are what most people start out playing.

Word of warning - 40k is a VERY expensive game to play. I already have a huge collection so don't need to purchase much, but I can't even imagine getting started with the game at its current prices. I would guess that a decent 2000 point army would cost you around $1,000 USD. Most people tend to play in the 1500 - 2000 point range.

Tyranids in particular would be a very expensive army, as they require a ton of infantry models as well as a large number of monstrous creatures which are very expensive. In terms of probably the least expensive armies to play, a Draigo Grey Knight Terminator army would not be too expensive and is still fairly viable. Iyanden Eldar with a lot of Wraith Guard and Wraithlords could also work. Both armies have ultra elite, high-point-cost units which means a low model count.

I hope that helps.

EDIT: Also, I wanted to address Alf's point that your experience will depend heavily on who you game with. I have played 40k competitively in the past and done quite well, but it's been obvious to me since 6th edition that it isn't meant to be played that way. I have a very hard time finding payers in my area who are looking for casual narrative games. As a result, most of my 40k collection gathers dust.

If you do choose to go the competitive route, be warned that you will be entering a constant and very expensive arms race with people who are more than happy to spend their way to victory.

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

I'll second the point about Warseer... some good painters on there but best to stay away from the rest of it I think. The 40K thread on Something Awful is pretty good.

I don't actually play 40k myself (nobody around here to game with at all, plus not enough money to get into it properly right now) but I do keep up to date with it for the most part, so... As far as rules go, here's the impression I get:

Tyranids - Got pretty shafted by the last two books in terms of design concepts IMO, they're playable, but they don't have access to some things nearly every other army does, and suffer if you go outside certain kinds of lists. The big bugs are overpriced more often than not, and some are just not good even if they weren't, which sucks.

Tau - Very solid, can shoot everything to death from where they deployed without trying too hard. Playing Tau + Eldar allies is considered bad form on your part.

Eldar - Far as I can tell, not quite as good as when the book first came out, but still good. Wraith-things are in I think?

Marines are Marines. Good, have an option for everything, only a few bad things, not too hard to play, etc.


I hope this is at least vaguely helpful.

_________________
Orks, Daemons and Eldar + whatever else

Guys, you are all awesome. Go out and buy yourselves some chocolate! Thats exactly what I was looking for, a pretty unbiased rundown of the current state of things. MiniWargaming have a series of 8x20 minute episodes on seventh edition, and then a couple of 70 minute battle reports, so I will work my way through that and it should answer all of the questions that I will need addressing initially. I will limit my interaction with Warseer to reading passively, then. Its a shame, as I used to be quite active there when it was Portent and then changed over, and it was a really nice place. I dont really get on with Dakka so much, to be honest.

I am actually getting started in Dust, following a trip to my only local gaming store. The decision came down to that or 40K or Flames of War, and the overall cost of 40K was something that really jumped out at me. I am a player more interested in watching the game happen and how my plans and tactics fare when meeting the enemy lines. I have almost zero in tournament or competitive play. That said, I like a system the rewards tactical thinking and using units in the best way and trying out different tactical options. I get the feeling that 40K is not really this kind of game either, but that it is more this than a tournament system. Besides, when you lose as often as I do, and paint as slow as I do, you need a different motivation to get the dice out!

The people I play against will be the regular crowd at the local store, and they seem like a prtty nice bunch and not super competitive.

Anyway, the plan for me really was to focus on Dust, but I like the 40K background and models. So, in tandem with this, and at a slower rate, I thought that I would paint up a couple of 40K units, then when Dust was underway, I could turn my attention to 40K more, when the various codex book was out, and use what I had as the core of a new force for that. Thats the plan, anyway.

I think that I will focus on Tyranids and Tau for this. I am not sure which of these would be the 'primary' force as it changes almost daily and I love both armies. Right now, Tau would probably be a better starter force for me, as while I love painting Tyranids, the Termagants are really only in a single pose and you need a load of them. But with these two, they are totally different, so when I get bored with one, I can switch to the other.

So, I assume that the core of any Tau force will be the Fire Warriors with Pulse Rifles and I will need a bunch of them. I also assume that the core of a Tyranid force will be either Termgants with Fleshborers or Hormagaunts, or even Tyranid Warriors.... Which maybe makes Tau a better force to get started with! The I just paint these at my own pace and wait for the new 7th edition codex, which will be a trigger to get more into the game of 40K.

So, if I just grab a box of Fire warriors and assemble them with their Pulse Rifles and nothing more, this should work?

Thanks all. Much appreciated.

_________________
https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.

Well, I have watched the first four of the eight overview videos on 7th edition, and the one thing that I have learned is that I dont think that I want to play 40K!

It still feels like a skirmish game crammed into an army game scope, and this has caused the rules to be slower than people want, which has lead to streamlining and simplifying. But, even the overview goes on about things situations that are not dealt with, and the whole thing just feels like pushing models around a board, which is fine.... but I struggle to see the point. I dont know. Maybe it will be better when I actually get a chance to get a game in, but I am less optimistic about the system than I was before, and thats not a good sign.

_________________
https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.

I seek further guidance... My musings run thusly....

I am still not convinced by 40K as a system. So, its probably best that the force that I pick is tactical and diverse, to keep it interesting. My preferred armies, in order, would be;

1. Tau
2. Tyranids
3. Eldar
4. Space Marines

But, it seems to me that the Tau are pretty one-dimensional, being a mobile gun line. Also, while generally the miniatures are awesome, I am not a fan of the Crisis minis. Tyranids are a bit more diverse, but not a lot. It seems that while they have a few good long range capabilities, they are generally a swarm force with some monstrous creatures who all charge forwards. While Eldar are a clear third choice, they do seem to offer the most diversity, and the most tactical options and challenges. It seems that the army can be built in a variety of ways, and a lot more than either Tyranids or Tau, and that the entire force can change its flavour by the addition of a single unit.

Is this correct? Would Eldar be a better option, even if it means sidestepping Tau and Tyranids?

Thanks.

_________________
https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.

Check out:

eastern-empire.com,
avancedtautactica.com and tauofwar.blogspot.co.uk if you want to see what it's possible to do with the admittedly fairly poor crisis suit models. It might give you some inspiration...

I love 40k... that is ... the background and setting. The game has deteriorated into a meaningless pile of rubbish. Unbound armies, 2+ knights or even whole armies of knights that many other armies can't really counter with a standard army (say most troop choices), fortifications as something you just pick up and bring to every battle (with rules where technically you place terrain after the fortifications which can lead to heavy discussions), new psyker rules that breaks fluff AND games, complete lack of balance and coherency of rules, Lords of Wars / titans in regular games, a tactical games that involve large fliers that are poorly placed in what is a tactical skirmish game... I could go on and on... GW has completely lost all interest in creating a game that can be played properly. The excuse is that it is for "friendly" or "roleplay" games. But as a game it completely suck.

HOWEVER, I still love the 40k universe so much that I am gathering some armies. I have a large Tau army that I am assembling and magnetizing at the moment. I did have two great battles with them so far (one against a Stompa). Both games weren't really played until the end but first was almost certainly a win and second one was devastating with the Stompa but I think I would have won by victory points and I spent my time killing troops instead of the stompa.
Also I have SM and IG armies in a closet waiting to be assembled and a whole host of Chaos FW Renegades.
So why? Well I am kinda doing my own thing and take my time doing it. I do it more for the hobby aspects and just hope one day a game system will appear that allows balanced games. Maybe GW goes belly up so the community can take over and create a playable game.
I will play now and then but it is a strain even in a friendly game with a best buddy (as we are both competitive by nature).

So my solution is to do what I want with, for example I have recently acquired 3 Imperial Sectors and 1 Cities of Death box and plan to build a large Cities of Death board. I have plans for Imperial Dreds vs. Ork Dreds battles, plans for a SM Scout rapid insertion force (almost only land speeder storms) and much else.

So 40k is okay if you can carve out your own purpose, but as a playable game it is a big mess and a game that tries hard to emulate EPIC to garner more money for GW. Play EPIC instead... :-)

Oh... Tau are not one-dimensional as I see it. They are my main army due to their versatility. You can create anything from static gun-lines to highly mobile, dropping behind enemy lines armies. You can be skimmer and light vehicle heavy or do a lot of Crisis suits.

I for one also love how differently you can configure your suits and there are many hidden gems in the army. Compared to Space Marines I think the list is more varied simple due to all the things you can do with it as SM tends to gravitate towards certain builds.

In the end I think the models should be the higher motivator and I love my Tau. The suits, the slimy aliens, their For the Greater Good motto and down to the drones and vehicles...

Many thanks for your inputs, guys. A quick look at the Crisis pictures has got me started on a few ideas for improving the designs to be more to my tastes..... This could get expensive. I really do find myself leaning towards the Tau for this. I really like the Tetra, but I know that they are FW. Still..... A GW Tau army gives me half a reason to pick some up.

I guess that there is more variety in a Tau force than I initially thought. I have been thinking about the Stealths, Drones, Crisis loadouts, etc. But, in a force without Kroot, there isnt really a way to include Tau close combat units, so I will need ot deal with that. That said, I guess that they have a much easier time against enemy tanks than Tyranids do, so there is that. I will probably pick up a Fire Warrior boxed set next month and see how I get on with it.

I will also be collecting a variety of pictures of:
- Tau colour schemes
- army builds
- Crisis conversions

Thanks guys.

_________________
https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.

If I can weigh in here at the end of this, maybe it will be of some use.

First of all, play 40k at between 1,000 and 1,500 points. Anything less and it's boring and any more and it's boring. The biggest issue with 40k is that, at least in 4th- 6th edition, is that the game just isn't fun to play. Most of the heavy weapons guys are going to start in range of enemy models and since you get penalized for moving there's not a lot of reason to do so unless your models are choppy. At higher point values, you get more of the heavies that can shoot across the board making the game more about sitting and shooting than moving or running to close as fast as possible for choppy armies. Neither really makes for much fun or has any depth. All the fun comes from working out the list prior to the game.

At the 1500 mark or the combat mission (200 point, but slightly different rules) mark, the game is actually pretty enjoyable since you have to rely more on out thinking and out maneuvering as well as focusing your units to specific roles than you do at the higher point values. There's also more space on the board with fewer models which makes you think a bit more about what you are doing

Just be warned, 40k has become rather insanely expensive lately. Not even 5 years ago a Land Raider was under $50. The model hasn't really changed since but the price is now nearly $75. You are likely better off picking up models from ebay or with a 20% discount from an online retailer.

_________________
-Vaaish

Thanks all. Honestly, while the cost issue is a thing, it only really decides whether I jump in or not, and how fast I buy stuff, but since I have decided to get started slowly, and I always paint way slower than I buy, its not such a big thing now. I will only be able to play in the store here, and while I could buy it all on eBay and they probably wouldnt even know, I do want to support the real shop that I can buy stuff from and game in. So, there is not a lot that I can do about prices now, but I have accepted that its not cheap, and I will take it slow, which is probably best for me anyway.

Thanks for the advice at game sizes. I am getting into the Tau a bit more now. I will pick up a box of Fire Warriors to make two squads out of, and a Crisis suit as a commander, and this will let me get in some introductory games. I can then just take it from there.

I can see myself playing larger and larger games though, as some of the toys that the Tau get are kind of cool, but I will always have the option of smaller games from then.

_________________
https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.