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Missing Threads

 Post subject: Missing Threads
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:16 pm 
Swarm Tyrant
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Just a quick note - I have moved a few threads from this board so that I can check them out. It is very important that we comply with IP from all companies, and in most cases GW. If one (or more) of your threads has vanished, please bear with me.

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Missing Threads
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:24 am 
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UPDATE

Just to keep you guys in the loop as much as possible, we are currently reviewing the way in which this board operates. Details are still being finalised, but likely changes include:

1. Stronger sanctions against casting and production of IP protected designs and materials. This includes designs produced at different scales and/or designs pre-existing in written, artistic or other media. I am very concerned about this site moving from a friendly, open environment for rules development and discussion, into a black market.

2. [Site wide change] No trades or exchanges are permitted through PM. All trades and purchases must be conducted through regular board threads. This allows feedback to occur naturally and keeps everything open and protects both parties.

3. There will be a Tactical Command: Engineering and Logistics divison of this board (TC:EL). This will consist of two new (limited) groups of threads, pinned here on this board:

Sculptors. Each person engaging in design and production of miniatures will have a post (they will send their details to me and I will add them to a single thread). This post will include:
- brief background/bio on the member
- brief description on their design and manufacture process (CAD, casting, etc)
- details of their location, and rough shipping costs for their miniatures

Miniatures catalogue. This will consist of a number of threads, organising the miniatures that are produced by members of this community (who will send me details and I will update). It will include pictures, scale, sizes, details, etc. As an example, the threads could be:
- infantry
- tanks
- aircraft
- mech and robots
- terrain
- other

Only miniatures in this catalogue may be traded/purchases on this board, and all miniatures will be 10mm or smaller. All submissions will be sent to me to check that they comply with IP rights and to be added to the catalogue. This board, site and myself will not make any profits from this, and no funds will be exchanged wth myself. It is a free service. The copyright and designs remain the property of the original sculptor and no claim is made by this site or myself. Acceptance into the catalogue in no way makes a statement on the legailty or IP ownership of the designs being offered, although all efforts will be made to ensure this.

Between offline discussions, conversation with the moderation team here and recent events, it has become clear that the situation with regards to IP copyright needs to be tackled better. The aim of this is to encourage the huge talent for design on these boards in a productive and supportive way, and build on what we have, while at the same time better publiicising the production of members of this board. This will allow people looking for something different to look through the relevant thread and see what is on offer easily, with a link to the sculptors bio and shipping information. At the same time, it is hoped that this will give sculptors and designers the freedom to do whatever they want at their own rate, get their products out there, create a potential design portfolio, and get the rewards of their efforts.

This attempts to fulfil the brief of this site in encouraging and promoting army scale games and miniautres and encouraging growth and visibility.

These are all currently initial plans and are subject to change and refinement.

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 Post subject: Re: Missing Threads
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:28 am 
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CyberShadow wrote:
2. [Site wide change] No trades or exchanges are permitted through PM. All trades and purchases must be conducted through regular board threads. This allows feedback to occur naturally and keeps everything open and protects both parties.


Just to be clear on 'site wide', this applies to trading genuine GW minis as well? eg, the trading threads section.

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 Post subject: Re: Missing Threads
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:35 am 
Swarm Tyrant
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Apocolocyntosis wrote:
CyberShadow wrote:
2. [Site wide change] No trades or exchanges are permitted through PM. All trades and purchases must be conducted through regular board threads. This allows feedback to occur naturally and keeps everything open and protects both parties.


Just to be clear on 'site wide', this applies to trading genuine GW minis as well? eg, the trading threads section.


Broadly, yes. A couple of points to clarify.

1. The above conditions only apply to miniatures created by people on these boards, where the resulting miniature is not affiliated with a company.

2. The trade and sale of all other miniatures and such will continue as normal, except for the above stipulation.

3. For all trades, across the boards:
- trades should be arranged and negotiated in an open public thread
- trades can be finalised (personal details exchanged) via PM or email

There has been concern and frustration expressed in the past with trade lists that are advertised in a thread and then all trades and sales are sorted out in private, meaning that no-one knows what has been sold, what is still available, or how well the sale/trade has actually gone (or even if the mini that they have just agreed to buy has already been sold five times to other people as a scam).

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 Post subject: Re: Missing Threads
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:44 pm 
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Text deleted, sorry - ignore this post. I was unaware of what brought this about. Having now heard puts a different light on things.


Last edited by GlynG on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Missing Threads
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:59 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
This thread concerns and disappoints me. If member X produces a model (either by CAD or sculpting) explicitly for their own personal use and enjoyment and shares photos of it, then, even if it looks similar to a model in another scale, surely no harm is done in practice or would result from it? Honestly such threads are the most inspiring and awesome things on the site and one of the biggest draws for me – they inspired me to get back into epic some years ago after years of no wargaming at all. I’m unclear quite what you intend but I strongly hope you aren’t considering outright banning threads including such miniatures people have designed for themselves e.g. E&C's 'My Painting Blog' because over time this would likely have a considerable negative impact on traffic on the forum and the amount of epic being played.

I fully appreciate there should be absolutely no discussion or references to buying, selling or trading any such models however, not even obliquely, as this could potentially get the forum in trouble (though nothing bad has come of anything up to now). You have made your desire on the subject clear and stronger and more widespread moderation on any public offers or requests should be sufficient to prevent any problem. I have no desire to moderate in other ways but would offer my help/eyes to police such threads to remove any such discussion, if that would help save such threads, whilst keeping the forum safer and you happier?


In response, yes and no. These actions are primarily geared towards the sale and trade of miniatures created off designs and IP not held by the seller. This is the core aim of these measures, and the most critical outcome. People are able to scratch build and create their own minatures, and I agree that this should be encouraged. CAD designs for personal use is a very new and very grey area currently. Scratch building your own minis out of plastic is clearly fine. Designing and casting a set of miniatures based on other peoples IP for sale and distribution is clearly not. CAD for personal use occupies a middle ground, since these files can be easily shared and reproduced.

In addition, to be very clear, I have zero intention on stopping new designs and miniatures being produced, shown off, discussed and sold. I enjoy watching this aspect as much as anyone. But we simply have to respect other companies IP and designs, and this includes 40K designs downscaled.

Although we have not had any bad outcomes at this point (personally, directed at this site alone), it is clear that this issue is escalating and at some point we simply have to face it and work out the best way forwards. I open this up for comment and feedback so that we can navigate a path as a community and find the best solution possible. However, ignoring the issue will simply result in problems - next week, next month or next year.

The line is pretty clear and well defined in other ways. Production of (for example) GW designs in any scale for sale, trade or distribution cannot happen. The issue on miniatures produced for home use alone is something that I am going to need to take advice on.

GlynG wrote:
Please could you reconsider the outright ban on PMing other board members about trades? Make it a suggestion or a recommendation if you like, but to outright ban it is unreasonable and serious overkill. I don't wish to discuss trades publicly and since such conversations take place in private not in public no harm or effect on others practically results.


Well, to start with, I fully accept that 'banning' trades through PM is not only unreasonable, but is unenforcable. I don't read peoples PMs, and although I have the ability to do so, its a lot of hassle and I have no intention of doing this. What I am trying to avoid here is two things:
1. Simply driving the sale and distribution of IP infringing miniatures 'under-ground'.
2. A lack of visbility in sales. When a sale is advertised and all communication happens in PM, it is impossible to what the situation is, and how is transpires. In an ideal world, I would like every trade or sale to have a visible component. Even if it is just a post saying 'I have just bought the 12 Land Raiders for xxx amount'. A simple post such as this informs everyone the state of the trade, the date at which a sale was made, what is still left in the trade and a lot of other details.

GlynG wrote:
Incidences of one board member ripping off another are extremely, extremely rare in the first instance and there is already a longstanding and well-working public feedback mechanism for trades with the ‘Good Trader’ and ‘Bad Trader’ threads. It’s indicative that there are 108 pages worth of good trades and only 4 pages of bad trades, most of which is discussion or about bad ebayers, with only 3 individual unresolved bad traders in 8 years.


Indeed, and I very much value the honest, open and excellent community that we have. I will always remember an episode of the D6 Generation podcast, Craig was getting into Epic and he remarked how the Epic community (not just this site) were just offering him miniatures and great deals, and this was echoed again on Worlds End. Bottom line is that the Epic community is awesome, friendly and more concerned about miniatures going to a player and the game growning, than a financial reward. But, what about people who see this as an opportunity? In the end, increased visibility isnt going to affect most people who trade here.

I am not attempting to introduce draconian measures, and I would like to see is take miniature creation to a new level. It is indicitive of the quality and growth of this aspect of the forum that we are even having this discussion, and that we do need to plan out route forwards.

I am more than happy to take suggestions, comments and feedback.

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 Post subject: Re: Missing Threads
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:17 pm 
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Sorry if the above was a bit of a rant, I've deleted my comments after being informed by PMs about the context, though too late as you'd responded already. In light of things your path makes more sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Missing Threads
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:41 pm 
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CS, can you please give a clarification on scratchbuilding?

just to get my head around things, if I make a model (let's say a land raider) out of plasticard and kneadatite that's fine/ok, but 3D cadding such a thing is not?

I accept the distinction and the fact that it would be easy for me to share the files, and I have no intention of doing so either.

Where does mould-making come in to this? if I take my scratch built model and copy it so I don't have to go to the trouble of building more from scratch, is that a legitimate thing or is that prohibited? (like possession with intent to supply....)

I'm not trying to push anything, just wanting to know the answers so I can plan any future endeavours without causing any issues

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 Post subject: Re: Missing Threads
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:54 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
Sorry if the above was a bit of a rant, I've deleted my comments after being informed by PMs about the context, though too late as you'd responded already. In light of things your path makes more sense.


Your post was entirely legitimate and valid. No problem at all.

kyussinchains wrote:
CS, can you please give a clarification on scratchbuilding?

just to get my head around things, if I make a model (let's say a land raider) out of plasticard and kneadatite that's fine/ok, but 3D cadding such a thing is not?

I accept the distinction and the fact that it would be easy for me to share the files, and I have no intention of doing so either.

Where does mould-making come in to this? if I take my scratch built model and copy it so I don't have to go to the trouble of building more from scratch, is that a legitimate thing or is that prohibited? (like possession with intent to supply....)

I'm not trying to push anything, just wanting to know the answers so I can plan any future endeavours without causing any issues


All very good questions. I am not really qualified to answer these as they would like only be 'best guesses'. I will add these questions to my list and seek some legal answers.

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 Post subject: Re: Missing Threads
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:58 pm 
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On a possibly related note what has happened to Otterman? I had old PMs in my inbox that now say they're from 'Anonymous' and labeled 'This message was sent by a user no longer registered.'

:'(


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 Post subject: Re: Missing Threads
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:38 pm 
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Yes. Otterman has been removed from the boards. That's all I will say at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: Missing Threads
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:29 pm 
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Sad news indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: Missing Threads
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:32 pm 
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that's a pity.

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 Post subject: Re: Missing Threads
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:01 pm 
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Sad news


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 Post subject: Re: Missing Threads
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:28 pm 
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Sad to hear; Such talent will be missed.

Well, beshert is beshert... =/

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